ESPN – Phillies vs. Braves – Box Score – September 17, 2008
Seriously, for the first time, I thought that maybe they really were lying down. I mean, I’m sure they’re not, but they don’t seem to be nearly as interested in winning as they were in New York. The only Brave who seemed much into it was Francoeur, who had a couple of hits and scored the team’s only run (with two outs in the ninth). KJ in particular was out of it, costing the Braves a run in the eighth when he forgot how many outs there were and turned a double-play groundout into a run-scoring groundout.
Jair Jurrjens had a terrible first inning, giving up four runs, but after that settled down. His control was way off, and he walked five while striking out only two. Meanwhile, the Braves were getting shut down by some guy off the street, “J. A. Happ”, whom I believe was a broker at Lehman Brothers until last week but gave up only three hits in six innings.
Chipper was 1-3 with a walk and is hitting .365. Pujols was 0-4 and is hitting .354.
I don’t mind if they’re rolling over.
Phillies for the sweep tomorrow, followed by the Braves sweeping the Mets and then the Braves getting swept by the Phillies one last time this year is fine by me.
I think 0-9 vs the Phils at home says something (if we lose tomorrow, Im sure we can). Not anything good, but something
Why does everyone want the Phillies to win so bad? I hate both teams and to top it off the Phillies have kicked the s*** out of us all year. How about this go Mets until Friday-Sunday.
“Lying down” is a good way to get banned from baseball.
I’m rooting for the Phillies because their fans are actually fairly nice when they’re winning and awful when they’re losing, while Mets fans are unbearable when they’re winning and fratricidal when they’re losing. The latter is really amusing.
I have a hard time believing that Phillie fans are nice ever.
That’s because they always lose.
I was complaining to a buddy about how Kotchman hasn’t had but four extra base hits in all his time for the Braves. I turn on the TV and he hits a double. Go figure.
He still doesn’t have any home runs, though. It makes me wonder if the door is opening for Kala Ka’aihue to sneak into a platoon role with Kotchman.
Norton has been doing extremely well as a pinch hitter over the last month or so. If he can work with Julio Franco, we may be able to get about 10 more years of production from him. Seriously, I haven’t decided whether we should keep him around next year or not. I want to see a young guy get a chance, but if we have a young guy who’s any good, it may be better for him to play everyday at Richmond. Thorman doesn’t look like he’ll make it.
As for the Phillies, this has been the story of our year. Except for the month of August (when we lost to everyone), we’ve had some teams that we’ve done pretty good against (Mets,Dodgers) and other teams that have killed us (Phils, Nats, SF, Col, Pit …). This has been a strange year. I join with Mac in saying I hate this team.
Much as I’d like to see what Kala can do, it’s probably best he play every day in AAA. We’ll see him at some point next year.
Meanwhile, Thor appears to have reached the end of his rope with the Braves organization. Maybe he can follow the trail blazed by Mike Hessman and be the next 1B for the Toledo Mud Hens.
(By the way, do you know who was on the Mud Hens’ roster this year? Fernando Seguignol! I remember when he was going to be the next Galarraga…)
I have a hard time believing that Phillie fans are nice ever.
Maybe not but Mets fans are insufferable. Go Phils and Brewers.
Great job tonight boys, one more tomorrow and then lets play some real baseball over the weekend.
“KJ in particular was out of it, costing the Braves a run in the eighth when he forgot how many outs there were and turned a double-play groundout into a run-scoring groundout.”
This is the kind of “Adam moment” that can potentially drive KJ out of down…
kc,
That would be a huge mistake unless it improves some other faction of the club to offset the loss of offense that Martin Prado is going to cause.
I don’t know whether this has been mentioned before, but the record for a season for average by a switch-hitter currently belongs to Mantle, at…. .365.
That would be a nice feather in Chipper’s cap to top off a batting title.
Nathan,
Yes, that was mentioned before. 🙂 Yesterday, I believe.
I’m with Mac in his description of Phils/Mets fans.
Also, ’09 schedules are out. We get AL East next year and, yes, again we play our “natural rival” Boston in 2 series. Yanks come to Turner Field. In fact, there’s a 9-game stretch where we play nothing but Red Sox & Yanks. Should be fun.
On another note, I happened to notice that batboy turns 25 today…
oh, they are facing Hamels tomorrow…which means they will lose even if they try to win.
Here is the latest from Dirkes:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
I certainly hope that we don’t pony up big time money for Lowe….
KC–Too bad for the Mets–we have been a punching bag for the Phillies this year…lets hope that it does not carry over into 2009….
Looks like I should’ve been patient as mlbtraderumors has a breakdown of our payroll for next year if we keep internal. D’oh! (goes to plug in prices and players).
Re last thread: no, I wasnt’ attached to Tex at all really… just made me ill to see somebody who SHOULD have made the difference here and SHOULD have had to suffer through the rest of this season celebrating… it’s like the married-for-twenty-years-and-yeah-I-still-love-my-wife-but-she’s-let-herself-go-recently-and-I-know-I’m-not-getting-any-anyway guy seeing his newly divorced buddy going home with the aspiring lingerie model.
We’ll see how this works for layout (as I go for the triple post first thing in the morning)… may end up deleting it. It’s my wild throw figures against the wall speculation that puts our payroll up a smidge from this year.
Position Player Name Salary
C Brian McCann $3,500,000.00
C Clint Sammons $400,000.00
1B Casey Kotchman $3,000,000.00
2B Kelly Johnson $1,250,000.00
SS Yunel Escobar $403,000.00
3B Chipper Jones $11,000,000.00
IF Martin Prado $400,000.00
IF/OF Omar Infante $2,000,000.00
LF Magglio Ordoniez $18,000,000.00 Trade Diaz, Francour, and Jo Jo for Maggs (probably need a bit more for that to work)
CF Josh Anderson $400,000.00
RF Burrell $13,000,000.00
OF Gregor Blanco $400,000.00
OF Brandon Jones $400,000.00
SP Jair Jurrjens $1,000,000.00 Sign to deal
SP Jorge Campillo $400,000.00
SP John Smoltz $7,500,000.00
SP Derrick Lowe/Japanese guy $12,000,000.00
SP Tom Glavine $6,000,000.00
RP Rafael Soriano $6,100,000.00
RP Mike Gonzalez $3,000,000.00
RP Blaine Boyer $400,000.00
RP Jeff Bennett $400,000.00
RP Manny Acosta $400,000.00
RP Buddy Carlyle $400,000.00
RP Jeff Ridgway $400,000.00
DL Tim Hudson $13,000,000.00
DL Peter Moylan $410,000.00
DL Chuck James $600,000.00
$106,163,000.00
Morton, Parr, and Chuck are your back-up bring-up from minors guys in this scenario
You are going to have to give up a lot more than Diaz, Francoeur, and Jo Jo to reel in Magglio. Hanson or Schafer would have to be apart of that deal I would think.
CharlesP:
I think you forgot about accounting for Hampton unless I’m missing something.
Also, I was doing some crazy projections. By my rough math, if Chipper can go 10 for 30 in the last 10 games he would finish at .363. If Pujols goes 16 for 33 in the Cardinals’ last 11 games he would finish at .362. If Chipper can just phone it in for these last 10 games then he should be good to go. And the .365 goal would be another good one to reach (thanks to Nathan for that fact because I didn’t catch it on yesterday’s thread).
Ben;
Hampton is gone baby GONE! Though you could pencil him into the Tom Glavine slot I guess… as long as not too much is being committed to the injury gambles and you’ve got a plan in place such that they’re not going to kill you if they go down.
Eric;
Yeah, i knew it wouldn’t be enough, but hadn’t looked up what it was they were needing and just penciled those in… I kind of think they were looking for pitching more than outfielders… but I’m not sure. You could also pencil in the same money for Dunn, and trade for pitching (could we send Francour to Japan for a pitcher?), though I’d rather have Maggs than Dunn.
I also didn’t muck around with the bullpen and that should probably happen too. I factored in a voluntary raise for JJ, though it might be best if we did that after next season (if he holds up then sign him through arbitration years and such like the McCann deal). I’m not sure on my figures for the Arb bump for Kotchman, Johnson, Infante, Diaz, Francoeur, and Gonzalez either. I assumed all would get a raise (even if they didn’t deserve it), and Diaz would probably get up to 2M, which would make him probably better traded to somebody else and use Blanco and BJ in his stead (though I really like Matt and wouldn’t be upset if we kept him).
It looks like they need to shed payroll and fill some holes… so they want a defensive SS, a closer, a set-up man, and a starter… not necessarily all of the above, but those are their needs. So maybe a package of Francour, Soriano, Jo Jo, Lillibridge, and Prado? They get an upside outfielder who could use a change of scenery (others still believe Frenchy has upside), an upside SS (or has Lilly killed all his upside?), a statistically apparently good middle infielder (Prado), a potentially good starter (Jo Jo) and a potential closer or set-up man in Soriano… and they get about 10 million dollars of the payroll. We get Maggs at what is probably market rate if we had picked him up on the FA market for the next three years (18/18/15 is the contract apparently). Yeah… I’m not sure that would work either.
A comment on the mlbtraderumors really hit the nail on the head. If we trade KJ and keep Frenchy, I’ll lose a lot of faith in the organization.
Would y’all trade Frenchy for Brian Bannister? I’m pretty sure I would.
Betcha that Frenchy is in RF in Philly on April 9, 2009. Braves FO sees him getting a few hits recently and decides he will “rebound.” Decides that “Magglio Ordonez” does not fit into the Braves marketing plan.
Anyway, Ben Sheets should be a lot cheaper now.
22—that’s more than a smidge. That’s over $15 million more than we spent on players in 2008.
27—good question. Would you prefer Bannister or Meche? Depending on how high Moore values Francoeur, I really think Greinke might be in play with other valuable parts included, and I really think I’d be open to including other valuable parts for Greinke.
28—come on. Are you suggesting the Braves have something against Hispanic players? Because that would be unfounded.
As for Francoeur, I just hope Dayton Moore believes he’s turning a corner. That’s my only hope re: our RF right now.
Stu;
that 106 is a relative smidge up compared to the 103 our payroll sat at on opening day according to various sources (though I’ve also seen the 89M figure as well, which would make it a bigger jump). Some of the 103 was probably picked up in insurance, and I would assume that some of the $13M for Hudson will be as well (though I don’t know how that pro-rates out)… BUT that is also a ‘pushing the limits of our budget’ scenario where I see it being more likely to only get one of the two outfield bats I listed (or only one big outfield bat, even if it’s not one of the ones I had listed).
Also, if we could get Grienke for Frenchy + Parts I’d be pretty happy with that.
What would you all think is the baseline for possible ‘incentive laden’ contracts offered to Smoltz/Glavine/Hampton? Would any of them do a $5M base with incentives that would take it up to $10M if they were good? Would we offer it?
Of Burrell/Dunn/Ordonez I think I’d rather have Maggs, though he’s not quite the power of Dunn, he’s a Chipper like hitter on the stat line and I wouldn’t complain about that.
CharlesP,
Those sources citing the 103 number are wrong. I promise. I’ve faithfully kept up with the number all season long. The payroll was never that high, even if Hampton is allocated his full $15 million salary in 2008 (which I don’t believe is accurate).
Our payroll was never any higher than $90 million.
We won’t get Greinke for Frency + Parts, unless you consider top prospects “parts”. I do wonder if they’d have any interest in Diaz. Would have been nice if he’d come back and shown that he can run around, at least.
As for the outfielder options, Maggs is likely more expensive than the other two are going to be, so that’s worth keeping in mind.
Well, I wasn’t meaning total crap parts, but maybe not Top prospects either… quality prospects.
So with the $90-95 figure I had originally thought (until I was swayed by the wonder of having $105 to play with) we would end up with probably the one big outfield bat, and my guess is the Burrell to Atlanta for 3yr at $40M is probably most likely.
I also see I didn’t count any money for Norton, and I think if he’s not TOO expensive he has been a pretty good guy to have on the bench as a Pinch Hitter and back-up 1B.
Should’ve also asked “What prospects do you think it would take to get Greinke?”
I agree about Norton. I have no idea how expensive he’d be, and at anything above $2 (maybe less) million, he’s probably not worth doing if he’s being used correctly—that is, only as a pinch-hitter—but I’d like to have his bat on the bench again, too.
As for Greinke, I have no idea. In reality, Francoeur should add very little to the value of a trade for Greinke, so it would theoretically take a good bit more. But, given Moore’s apparent relationship with our RF, who knows? I’m probably being unrealistic.
I should also note, as many did before, that the $40-million-over-three-years speculated price tag on Burrell seems to good to be true.
I would trade Frenchy for anything. There are at least a few reports talking about how his value is low right now, but another year like this one and there is NO value anymore.
I really would be excited if we could make a move for Harang, Snell, Grienke or any other decent starter this offseason. Sheets probably just cost himself a huge contract if this elbow/forearm stiffness becomes a huge injury. He’ll get one sooner or later though. Im not against signing Lowe this offseason either.
You know I cant believe it, but I just turned down 4 tickets and a parking pass to Sat. nights game vs the Mets. Who would’ve thought a day would come where I wouldnt drive two hours to watch a Braves/Mets game. I guess this is what a terrible team going through the motions and college football will do to you
Stu,
I don’t know if you were kidding but I was making a joke about the Braves keeping Francouer in RF because he is “the face of the franchise.” It wasn’t meant to say the Braves are prejudiced against Hispanics.
Marc,
I wasn’t kidding, but I apologize for misreading you. I knew it was a joke, sorta, but the way you put Maggs’ name in quotation marks gave me the wrong impression.
Funny thing is Burrell only has 12 more RBI’s than Jeff this year, even though he has 31 HR’s to Jeff’s 11. Since the break, neither one are worth paying anything for…
Burrell .210 .300 .390 .690
Francoeur .236 .308 .315 .624
Give me Dunn over Burrell even if it cost an extra mil or 2 per year. He’s 3 years younger and has more power. 5 straight 40HR seasons and almost a career .400 OBP, but you will get more K’s and worse defense from him.
schafer and b jones/anderson in RF would be able to make up for Dunn’s defensive liabilities.
i’ll take Dunn
and kick the tired of Fielder and see what they would want.
I would trade Hanson ONLY in a Fielder deal (and Pujols, but that’s just never gonna happen…or Hanley).
I’d really like to see us get Greinke. But I think the Royals know his potential. If we could get him for cheap, that’d be great.
27 — indeed, that is a scary thought.
Isn’t Bannister a ground ball pitcher? (am I remembering correctly?) Could he be a cheaper version of Derek Lowe or is Lowe really THAT much better? (I don’t have the time to look it up right now.)
Furthermore… do we have the IF for a ground ball pitcher? I like KJ, but fielding isn’t really his forte. Do you have to be super strong at all IF spots for a ground ball pitcher? Is adequate going to kill you?
36 — csg, I’d like to see what it would take to get Harang as well.
41—I don’t think we could get Greinke for cheap, but I’d be willing to give up a lot to get him. I wouldn’t hesitate to do Francoeur/Hanson/Lillibridge, for example. Or is that not “a lot”? Seems like Lillibridge really fits a need for the Royals.
40—Jones/Anderson in RF offsets Dunn in LF??? Have you seen those guys play defense? Jones throws like Johnny Damon’s grandmother.
It’s really too bad the Rangers finally gave Nelson Cruz a chance to play—he’d have been a good undervalued target for us this offseason, whether we keep Francoeur or not.
Jones/Anderson/Blanco are terrible CF arms, they couldnt throw out runners going to 2nd much less throwing one out at the plate.
Anyone think Bannister can bounce back? He was solid his 1st two years, but terrible this year.
I think the reason people were saying they would make up for Dunn is because they could run down the ball at least… though maybe I’m wrong there.
I guess its good when you got a lot of range, but its useless when you cant throw it back, a la Juan Pierre. Jeff has the bat and arm for CF, maybe he’ll try the Lance Armstrong workout this offseason and get his 4.4/4.5 40 speed time back. Then he’d be useful again…..or better yet, just go through the pains with Schafer in CF next year and trade Frenchy
Maybe so, Charles. Goodness, that would be one terrible defensive outfield, though, all things considered. Maybe you punt on outfield defense when you have Adam Dunn, anyway. (Unless you play him at first…)
I’ll sacrifice the arm to get the range any time. We lived with Michael Tucker in right for two years, and it cost a whole lot less to have his chicken arm than Francoeur’s chicken brain.
You know, if Harang really is available, that might bring 2009 contention into the picture. That’s an top-of-the-rotation guy who “only” costs $11 million next year. If you could land Harang and someone like Ian Snell or Edwin Jackson, you still have money to buy Burrell or Dunn for LF and sign someone competent but not terribly expensive (like Juan Rivera) for RF. And you can do all that for under $90 million, I believe, if you assume that either Diaz or Francoeur (or both) are jettisoned in the process.
OK, it’s time for this fantasy to be shot down now. Go!
Rotation
Harang
Jurrjens
Jackson
Campillo
Smoltz, Glavine,
but 2010
Harang
Hudson
Jurrjens
Jackson
Hanson
whats not to like
#51… all our pitchers being H or J alphabetically? All that alliteration *shudder*. Ok, so it’s not enough to worry about it.
I think what we’re saying here is that we have hope now that it’s possible Wren has options that might allow us to be competitive in 09 and 10 without bankrupting the farm or the payroll… which is a good thing… though I think Mac might frown on ‘hope’ around here 😀
It’s remote hope. It might even be delusional hope. If the higher-ups would commit to even a $100 million payroll, it might become a bit more than that.
(Also, getting Harang and another half-decent starter would cost some prospects. We will have to give some highly regarded guys up t0 get quality pitching. Schafer and Heyward would be my only untouchables.)
I think it’s probably more likely that Wren would try and trade for Harang, and then get their Japanese guy in FA to save the farm a bit. If he can get Dunn or Burrell at a semi-reasonable level that might still not break the bank. The team also has to look to the future for how much they’re going to commit to JJ, Esco, and even Chipper in the next few years when figuring out the budgetary constraints.
*goes to update list with new suggestions*
The team also has to look to the future for how much they’re going to commit to JJ, Esco, and even Chipper in the next few years when figuring out the budgetary constraints.
Yeah, but other than McCann (and Hudson, if he’s not bought out for $1 million), there’s not a single player on the roster signed past 2009, so there’s some money to play with there in terms of contract extensions and arbitration awards.
I just don’t know anything about the Japanese pitchers not named Darvish; you may be right about them.
Another trade possibility worth revisiting, IMO, is Randy Winn, either as another stop-gap CF or just a generally useful outfielder. How much the Giants would pay of the $8.25 million he’s owed next year would depend on what we’d give up, I’m sure.
Ok, so I averaged the range for Dunn/Burrel at $15M (may be more, may be less). I also went higher than Diaz would get, on the assumption we’ll bring in somebody in the 2-5M price range.
Position Player Name Salary
C Brian McCann $3,500,000.00
C Clint Sammons $400,000.00
1B Casey Kotchman $3,000,000.00
2B Kelly Johnson $1,250,000.00
SS Yunel Escobar $403,000.00
3B Chipper Jones $11,000,000.00
IF Martin Prado $400,000.00
IF/OF Omar Infante $2,000,000.00
LF Diaz or Stop Gap $5,000,000.00
CF Josh Anderson $400,000.00
RF Burrell or Dunn $15,000,000.00
OF Gregor Blanco $400,000.00
OF Brandon Jones $400,000.00
SP Jair Jurrjens $400,000.00
SP Jorge Campillo $400,000.00
SP Smoltz or Glavine $7,500,000.00
SP Japanese Pitcher $9,000,000.00
SP Harang $11,000,000.00
RP Rafael Soriano $6,100,000.00
RP Mike Gonzalez $3,000,000.00
RP Blaine Boyer $400,000.00
RP Jeff Bennett $400,000.00
RP Manny Acosta $400,000.00
RP Buddy Carlyle $400,000.00
RP Jeff Ridgway $400,000.00
DL Tim Hudson $13,000,000.00
DL Peter Moylan $410,000.00
DL Chuck James $600,000.00
$96,563,000.00
Well, Wren has been making noise going over there recently, and apparently it’s a heavier option. We may not get the top guy, but I think there are enough innings eating options that if we pair Harang with JJ we could aim for somebody better than average.
By not a single player signed past 09 do you mean everybody else is arb eligible at that point? or just not under a contract.
Hanson would also be an untouchable. He’s projected to be a good #2 starter and I’d hate to give that up just over a year after giving a potential ace in Feliz up. Hate to get rid of Freddie Freeman either.
We could always go the same route the Dbacks went last winter and try for quantity over quality. Francouer, Lillibridge, Blanco and all our AAAA pitchers would be available.
They’ll desperately need outfield power and pitching depth and Harang’s value will be down slightly after this year.
I don’t think Ordonez will demand a top prospect either. He’s in his mid 30s and the Tigers desperately need to shed about $30 million of payroll.
59—The D’Backs gave up quality, not just quantity. They weren’t giving up AAAA pitchers.
If you get a proven top-of-the-rotation guy in return, I don’t think Hanson’s untouchable. I agree that I wouldn’t trade him for Ian Snell. Harang’s a tougher call because he had a down and is now on the wrong side of 30. Like I said before, though, I’d definitely be willing to give up Hanson for a Greinke, so I don’t classify him as “untouchable.”
And I’m not anxious to give up Freeman (or Flowers or Medlen or Hernandez, etc.) but I’d be willing to for the right player.
I may be short-sited on how this would work out financially… but right now I’m thinking I wouldn’t be opposed to the Braves giving Escobar and JJ contracts like they did with McCann. JJ I think in mid season next year we’ll know what we’re getting and it would be fiscally wise to lock him in for a few years. Esco I think we already know what we’re getting (certainly not McCann level of production, but we have a pretty good idea of what he’s going to be) and similarly locking him up for a few years isn’t a bad thing. Everybody else is a question mark (or worse), we don’t know how KJ is going to pan out, but if he has a solid year next year he’d be another one to consider locking up.
I don’t think you need to lock up Infante/Blanco/Kotchman because we just don’t know what we’re going to get, but I think Esco fits his position well, and JJ fits into our rotation well. KJ probably depends more on what other moves you make, and if he shows a year of more stability instead of being quite so streaky.
Thoughts? Is it foolish to guarantee $1-6M a year to a guy when you know you’ve got at least a couple more years at $400K? Or is it wise to lock in your young stars, and guys who are going to be solid if not great so you can “know” that you’re going to be filling X hole next year and have Y amount of money to fill it?
KJ is currently 7th in OPS and 7th in RC/27 among qualifying second baseman in MLB. This is after being 5th and 7th, respectively, last season. He’s 26 years old. The Braves should try to sign him to a long-term contract, too.
I certainly wouldn’t have expected Frenchy to out-OPS Pat Burrell. An isoOBP of .072 isn’t disastrous, unless of course you’re struggling to hit your weight, like Frenchy’s been doing all season.
Anyway, yeah, Burrell’s a streaky guy, but at the end of the year he’s extremely productive. He’s worth the money, at least for the next few years.
Game thread is up.