More punishments for Chris Woodward:
- Patrolling Mark Richt’s house to ensure Nick Saban doesn’t plant any bugs.
- Ticket sales manager, Atlanta Thrashers
- Ticket sales manager, Atlanta Hawks
- Spin doctor for Joey Harrington
133 Comments
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You need a big ticker at the top of the page counting down the days left in Woodward’s Braves career, Mac.
Like they aren’t going to bring him back on a minor league deal.
Let’s trade Renteria and Escobar for some Hampton type pitcher and then start Woodward at SS!
Doesnt Dotel have a player option for next year at 5.5 mil? Doesnt that mean he gets to decide if he pitches in Atl next year?
From the previous thread:
Davies is a bad pitcher. He wasn’t good here, and he hasn’t been good in Kansas City. I’m willing to say he probably will never be good. He may one day, and that may change my opinion, but for now, he’s not any good. By removing him, he cannot be a detriment to our team the way he was. It’s a classic case of addition by subtraction.
As for Dotel, he was an injury risk. It was a risky trade that didn’t work out. While he made more than Davies, it’s not like his salary hindered us from making anymore deals, so his salary doesn’t matter at all. When we compare someone’s performance to their salary, it’s assuming that salary could have gone somewhere else. Dotel’s salary wouldn’t have gone to anywhere except Liberty’s profit margin, so that point is not valid.
As for his subsequent injury, it’s unfortunate. But with the worst case scenario occurring (his injury), it still kept Davies out of Atlanta, which helped the Atlanta Braves. I don’t have a personal bias against Davies. He’s just not any good. Will he one day? Maybe, but it will take a lot of detriment to the team before he does. At the time, the way our bullpen looked, it was worth gambling to see if Dotel’s arm held up. It didn’t, oh well, still not a bad trade.
On a bright note, tonight’s starter for us has an ERA lower than Mil.’s starter. In fact, it’s so miniscule there’s nothing to it at all!
It’s a bad trade.
Whether the money is spent on another player or on improvements to the stadium or on a new wardrobe for the CEO of Liberty Media, there’s no way to argue that paying $5 million for nothing isn’t worse than paying $350 thousand for nothing.
And I don’t see how it’s addition by subtraction. First, none of the starters we’ve shuffled through that 5th spot have proven to be any better than Kyle. Carlyle was for a couple months, I guess, but the bloom is off that rose, and you can’t seriously contend that he’s a better option than Davies right now.
That said, Davies belonged in AAA. He’s of absolutely no detriment to the team when he’s not on the ML roster. And he was on the AAA roster when they traded him (that is, he had already been “kept out of Atlanta”), so it wasn’t like he was going to be hurting the Braves anytime soon, anyway.
And I disagree that it was worth the Dotel gamble, as I did at the time. The guy can’t stay healthy. Hasn’t been able to for years.
Whatever Dotel costs doesn’t matter; the money allocated for his deal wasn’t going to go anywhere. It was going to go to Liberty’s CEO. It’s a non-issue.
We have different opinions on how much of a gamble Dotel was, and based on the need of the pen at the time, I was in favor of taking the gamble. So because of the potential value of Dotel to the bullpen, I didn’t mean it was addition by subtraction for the rotation. It’s addition by subtraction because if he’s out of Atlanta’s organization, he can’t be used in Atlanta. He would have kept getting shot after shot in Atlanta, so while he was in Richmond at the time of the trade, it doesn’t matter. He would have been back. If the trade was done two weeks earlier when he was in Atlanta, it the semantics wouldn’t be an issue.
I will definitely agree with you that Davies belongs in AAA. However, he belongs in AAA for a very long time. And since I believe that to be true, trading him for a potential bullpen stud was worth it. And like I said, he wouldn’t have stayed in Richmond. He’d probably be up in Atlanta right now sporting his ERA north of 6, like he’s doing in Kansas City.
At the end of the day, I think it’s a good trade, and you think it’s a bad trade. We both have evidence for our points of view, so it’s just good to drop this. If we hadn’t made the trade, we wouldn’t be printing playoff tickets, so really, the argument is pointless.
Astros are getting Ed Wade, the ex Phillies GM, as their new GM.
I guess we don’t have to worry about the Astros until at least 3 to 5 years after Wade leaves.
If the Mets don’t increase the payroll substantially, we may also be glad they have Omar. Pedro, Delgado, VAlentin, the “all break down” team.
Maybe Omar can trade for some help from the Giants. Wait, he already has “good but frequently out of the lineup” Jesus “urine hands” Alou.
Davies has already proven he can dominate AAA. He just doesn’t have the mental make up or pitches to be an effective major league starter. In other words, he’s a classic AAAA player. Sending him back to Richmond would have accomplished nothing. He’d just have pitched very well there then came back up in September and hurt the team again with his stinky pitching. Good riddance.
Holliday has 6 of his last 9 in two pitchers parks, (SD and LA). However, he does have three games at home, where his average is like 70 points higher than away.
Chipper and Edgar play their last six at Philly and Houston.
I think Holliday will fade, and one of Chipper and Edgar will win the batting title.
Whatever Dotel costs doesn’t matter; the money allocated for his deal wasn’t going to go anywhere. It was going to go to Liberty’s CEO. It’s a non-issue.
See paragraph 2 @ #7.
If the trade was done two weeks earlier when he was in Atlanta, it the semantics wouldn’t be an issue.
If the trade were two weeks earlier, my point would still stand. First, as I said, Davies is no worse as a 5 than any of the guys who’ve filled his shoes have been.
Second, the problem under your hypothetical situation would be that Davies isn’t in the minors, where he needed to be to sort some stuff out. That’s a completely different issue than whether we should dump him for notihng in return. And it has nothing to do with “semantics”, FWIW.
I will definitely agree with you that Davies belongs in AAA. However, he belongs in AAA for a very long time. And since I believe that to be true, trading him for a potential bullpen stud was worth it. And like I said, he wouldn’t have stayed in Richmond. He’d probably be up in Atlanta right now sporting his ERA north of 6, like he’s doing in Kansas City.
He does belong in AAA for a while, only I’d prefer it be in the Braves’ system. And Dotel wasn’t really a potential stud. If I can predict that he’ll pitch 5 innings, I’m sure most baseball fans could know what was coming. And, since I guess I have to hammer this point home again, have you seen our back-of-the-rotation starters’ ERAs?
At the end of the day, I think it’s a good trade, and you think it’s a bad trade. We both have evidence for our points of view, so it’s just good to drop this. If we hadn’t made the trade, we wouldn’t be printing playoff tickets, so really, the argument is pointless.
What’s your evidence again? Dotel was a “potential” stud? (Nope.) Davies is bad? (Yep. So are the guys we’ve used in his stead. Only they’re older than 23.) Money doesn’t matter? (Doesn’t matter to the fans; matters according to basic economic principles.)
I don’t think it’s pointless. Maybe with respect to 2007 it’s pointless (though, as I’m sure you can guess, I’d be willing to argue even that), but the Royals control Kyle cheaply for a while longer. I see that as relevant to the Braves.
I can tell it bothers you that I was completely right about this trade from the beginning, but I really don’t see the point in defending a trade that gave us literally nothing, as should have been reasonably expected to be the case at the time it was completed. Seems like the definition of a “bad” trade to me.
Anybody know where Alex R.’s been?
Has anyone answered the question from #4?
Stu, Im with you on the Davies deal. True he’s been horrible with Atl, but when you have a 23 yr old starter at league minimum with options you dont just dump him. Dotel, who can be very good, has been injured all year and there was no reason to go after him. We have no SP depth, we have a good bullpen and plenty of decent relievers in the farm, so in no way should we be moving guys like Reyes, Davies, James, or anyone else
Im also not saying that I’ll miss Davies, my point is that we should have gotten someone other than Dotel for him. Send him back to the farm, let him dominate there for a year, then find someone who wants him
DougM,
According to http://www.mlbcontracts.blogspot.com, it’s a dual option. The Braves can void it if Dotel exercises the option.
Like I said, I’m not arguing the trade anymore.
I can tell it bothers you that I was completely right about this trade from the beginning,
Do you have to make everything personal? This has nothing to do with you. Get over yourself.
Well, I can’t see any other logical reason for defending such a bad trade, so I just assumed. My mistake. (Note: No actual mistake was made.)
Whatever dude.
Last word!
Was Wade the one that did the Pat Burrell deal?
So will Soriano actually serve this this year? And if not, can suspensions be carried over into the next season? If they can, I would rather just prefer him to serve it now and not appeal, instead of appeal and have to serve it in ’08.
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070920&content_id=2220310&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Wade is a stupid, stupid general manager. As I recall, after Rolen said no to a HUGE deal because the Phillies were perennial losers and the front office didn’t seem to want to lift a finger to rectify the situation, so they traded Rolen for Bud Smith and Placido Polanco and gave max deals to Abreu, Burrell, and David Bell instead.
That sentence was ungrammatical. It should have been split as follows: “As I recall, Rolen said no to a HUGE deal because the Phillies were perennial losers and the front office didn’t seem to want to lift a finger to rectify the situation. So they traded Rolen for Bud Smith and Placido Polanco and gave max deals to Abreu, Burrell, and David Bell instead.”
My cousins in Pa. are enormous Phils fans & Wade was their constant target of abuse. They’d say things like, “I’m surprised he hasn’t traded Utley yet.”
Oh, Woodward will be back, just in another form. He’s Keith Lockhart reincarnated.
I might feel bad for Astros fans if it weren’t for Brad Ausmus.
I’m not saying a lot here, but Lockhart was better than Woodward.
Safe to say that the Astros will soon be on their way to having the most expensive middle relievers in the league.
The Dotel-Davies thing is a non issue. Dotel didn’t work out for us, Davies won’t work out for them. The money spent on two months of Octavio didn’t keep us from doing anything and would have likely ended up in Liberty’s checking account. Maybe we can weasel a draft pick out of “losing” Dotel to free agency. I take that over this thousand to one shot that Davies will suddenly become smart enough to get major league hitters out.
Wouldn’t we have to arbitration to Dotel to get compensation? Will we do that?
And I think the odds that someone who’s risen to the big league level already will sort out his issues are greater than the odds of Draft Pick X even making it to the big league level.
Davies is nothing. When you give up nothing, you can’t lose a trade. At worst, it’s a push.
At best, it’s a push. We know we received nothing. We don’t know what we gave up, forthcoming snarky Davies remarks to the contrary.
Nothing is being kind. He’s been a big negative. Worst regular starter in the league.
He’s 23 and as good as all the guys with whom he’s been replaced.
And he’ll be 24 next year and still be getting knocked out in the fourth. Only it won’t be for us.
Robert,
Escobar is 24. You’ve argued here before that “we don’t know who he is yet”—why are you so sure about Kyle?
All Escobar has done is perform well; all Davies did is perform poorly.
Guys, just drop it. Stu will just argue until we give up. The trade had no impact on our season, and because Davies will do nothing, it will continue to be inconsequential.
All in favor of a No-Davies Zone, say aye.
Good thing we waited around for Yunel’s age-24 season, huh?
Guys, just drop it. Stu will just argue until we give up.
Bingo. I should know better.
When do we get to vote on a No-Stu zone?
I will argue until I understand how you can possibly not think this was not a bad trade or until someone points out a mitigating factor I’m not seeing here, yes.
Your non-personal sentiment is cute, though.
I can understand the feeling that, at the time, it wasn’t a bad trade. I disagree with that—and I did so at the time—but I can understand it. Back then, some thought Dotel would stay healthy and that Buddy Carlyle would continue to be good. Sort of wishful thinking, but grounded in something resembling fact, anyway.
Right now, though? We got absolutely nothing and are sure to continue getting the same for the length of Dotel’s tenure with the Braves. Though I guess you guys have fun calling him “nothing” or “detrimental” or “negative” or whatever else, the fact remains that he could get better, will remain cheap, and is no worse than any of the guys we’ve used in his absence.
When do we get to vote on a No-Stu zone?
I assume the don’t-make-personal-attacks rule is still in place, Mac.
Yes, it is. Keep all personal attacks to players and management.
There is no point in arguing with you because you chosen a position that cannot be addressed (He could suddenly get better!). No one can specifically rule that out of course. His comps next year will be filled with Kevin Coffman, Ruben Quevado types who made the major early and were never be heard from again just as it was this year. But that won’t matter becuase he could be the one that suddenly gets better!
It’s a nothing trade. We hoped Dotel’s arm would hold up (a non-zero possiblity unless you think JS is stupid) and it didn’t. For that little gamble we gave up a guy who stinks. It’s not a good trade or a bad trade, it’s a nothing trade.
But, Robert, it’s not like I’m saying this about Mark Redman. This is a 23 year-old. Do you not expect him to get better? Before the past year or so, a lot of people were awfully high on this kid. Yes, a lot of people could have been wrong, and yes, he has been bad, but I just don’t understand what seems to be the default assumption around here that Davies just won’t get better.
Right now, yes, it’s a nothing trade in that neither side has gained or lost much of anything as a result. But it can only get worse from the Braves’ end. Trades that can *at best* break even for your team are trades that shouldn’t be made, IMO. If a trade shouldn’t be made, it’s a bad one.
As for Coffman and Quevedo, aren’t there stories of guys who’ve flashed brilliance, struggled mightily, then become worthy of roster spots? Why are you so sure Davies isn’t one of those?
As for Dotel, of course there was a possibility that he’d stay healthy. I think, though (as I did then), that the probability of Dotel remaining healthy was less than the probability that Kyle would be able to make positive contributions to a major league club over the next 3 years.
Forget the vote, I’m issuing an executive order. This is now a no-Davies zone.
…*at some point* over the next 3 years.
Well, then.
On another, hopefully more Mac-friendly note, I challenge everyone to check espn.com’s fantasy baseball site and not be creeped out by the picture that’s up there right now.
Do you not expect him to get better?
Uh, no. His comps this year are lousy, his comps next year will be lousy. Objective evidence says he won’t be useful going forward.
Trades that can *at best* break even for your team are trades that shouldn’t be made, IMO. If a trade shouldn’t be made, it’s a bad one.
And of course this isn’t the *at best* scenario at all. He could do his ‘own AAA, suck in the majors’ act again next year but this time he’ll be losing games for someone else. The best part about this deal could be removing the temptation for JS and Bobby to let him back out there to kill us again.
As for Coffman and Quevedo, aren’t there stories of guys who’ve flashed brilliance, struggled mightily, then become worthy of roster spots?
Uh, no. Are you sure you know who you are talking about? They came up early, were terrible, and never contibuted anything else.
…and I’m in the Davies-free zone. Thank you Mac.
I love when this happens:
I just found out that I have a business trip to Houston next weekend. And guess who’s playing there?
That’s right—my beloved, fighting-for-the-middle Atlanta Braves.
Guess I’ll have to take in at least one of those meaningless games. And I’ve never been to Enron/Minute Maid/George Jetson Park, so hey, why not?
I wasn’t talking about those guys, Robert. Hence, “there” instead of “their”.
Ububba, have fun
Stu/Robert – let it go
any takes on Bennett’s line tonight
Michigan or Penn St this weekend?
Rafael Soriano of the Atlanta Braves has been suspended for four games and fined an undisclosed amount for intentionally hitting Dan Uggla of the Florida Marlins with a pitch in the top of the ninth inning of Monday’s game at Turner Field. Bob Watson, Vice President of On-Field Operations for Major League Baseball, made the announcement.
Soriano’s suspension had been scheduled to begin tonight, when the Braves host the Milwaukee Brewers. However, he has filed an appeal. Thus, his suspension will be held in abeyance until the process is complete.
Is this going to carry over into 2008?
Bennett looks like a young John Thomson
if he doesnt serve it, then yes
I wasn’t talking about those guys, Robert. Hence, “there” instead of “their”.
Ah, yes. So to the original question, sure there are. But just like every soft tossing lefty gets compared to Jamie Moyer, it goes the other way much more often. But hey, Davies could be the one! Can’t take that away from you.
Michigan or Penn St this weekend?
I like Penn State. Unlike ND, Penn State has some good receivers that should be able to find plenty of space out there. And I like the Lion defense against a freshman QB (I’m assuming Henne isn’t ready).
Not an easy game to pick though. Morelli could kill them.
I like Bennett’s control so far. Hitting 92-94 on the fastball, 81-82 on breaking pitches and change ups.
1IP 3K’s
1IP 3K’s
Pretty tough to beat that, for sure.
only thing is that Penn St hasnt played anyone yet, in fact all their games have been at home also. Both teams have played ND and won easily. Michigan’s #’s actually were better, its going to be a very good game I think
why is Renteria playing, you can tell he’s still hurting alot
Inconsequential note:
Have the Florida Marlins quit or what?
atta boy Chip, get that avg on up there
I just caught up on the Gameday notes and saw that bunting is still not the Braves thing.
Since Sept. 5, Chipper is 18-39. Just fyi…
Six Ks in four innings. Where was this guy when we need him?
Without thinking, when I turned the TV on, I was like, “What is John Thomson doing on the mound?” Then I realized it was Jeff Bennett.
The fish decided the season wasn’t over quite yet. Cabrera takes the sandwich out of his hand long enough to hit a 3 run jack and the fish up on the Muts 4-3.
May the Mets collapse continue.
MIGUEL!!!
7 k’s???
That’s 7 Ks for Bennett now. He must have the goods on these Brewers. Maybe that’s why they called him up, for his insider knowledge. Good to see him rewarded for pitching well at Richmond.
wow, 8K’s
Pretty magical night for the guy. I hope he can keep it up. Only 75 pitches. Every pitch in that last AB was 91-93. Nice.
Bennett’s got more Ks tonight than he did in any start for Richmond. AFAIK, he was pitching from the pen before that, so it’s probably the most he’s had in any outing so far this year.
Talk about making an impression.
Pretty tough to see Dontrelle not give up at least a couple more runs to the Muts. Maybe he can channel his rookie year for a few more innings.
Well, looks like we’ve found a fifth starter for the rest of the year.
Meaning for one more start.
Exactly. No more Cormier. That’s what makes it so good.
.343 now for Chipper. Home team scoring helped on that one.
Seriously, what was so wrong with Cormier? I asked on the previous thread. This is obviously better, but why is everyone so anxious to get rid of him? I thought’d he’d done pretty well (other than his most recent start) lately, at least for a fifth starter.
yeah thought that was an error also, could have been scored either way…tough play
why the hate for Cormier?
Jeff needs two more k’s
Chipper is making a case for himself. Do we have a Holliday update?
1-4 today with a HR
Kyle Davies siggety sux!!
Dotel is the best we could do for him. If we could have gotten more for Davies, we would have. You’d be amazed how little people will pay for the right to own the worst pitcher in baseball. (Cue the horrible ERA stat that I don’t feel like looking to previous posts to re-print now.)
The trade gets an incomplete because Dotel went on the shelf; however, it’s definitely addition by subtraction to get beyond planning on having Davies in the Braves starting rotation. Thank you for ending that pipe dream, JS.
It was the best move to make at the time, and even though it didn’t work out this year, it’s net plus going forward.
The end.
He’s just another one of the fifth-starter shuffle, another Buddy Carlyle. Jeff Bennett will be probably the same next year if he makes the team again, but Bennett in this one start is doing stuff that Cormier hasn’t really done all year.
Dang, Teixeira couldn’t glove that one.
I’d rather Soriano sit out now than next year. I’m just saying…
let him finish this inning!
Oops, missed the No Davies zone before my post. I’m sorry and/or my bad. (does anybody else get those Comcast commercials with the turtles)
So.. SEC football talk starts when?
Holliday’s at .339.
Eh, I don’t agree with taking Bennett out right now. Daiman Miller was next. Anyone can get him out with their eyes closed.
Acosta? After what happened against the Marlins?! No way!
Dear Jeff Bennett,
We’d all like to applaud your efforts tonight. You done good. Thanks. We only wish you’d had a chance to do this earlier.
—Braves fans
atta boy
‘Rissa,
There’s no gaurantee that he’d do that all year. XP Still, it would have been nice if he didn’t become a part of the Fifth Starter Shuffle.
That being said, great game by him tonight. Got a Gold Star waiting for him if the Braves hold on.
Good game Jeff. Let’s hope we get you the W.
Here’s how much Chipper’s injury woes have hurt him in the MVP race. If he would have gotten 575 ABs (he’s got ~480 now) his line would look like this today:
194 hits/32 homers/114 RBIs/.343 average/OBP .428
That beats out Holliday and Fielder because it’s so stellar overall.
@ 100
I know. I seem to remember a certain great first big league start in Boston from a pitcher who shall not be named, and it just went downhill from there. But, if Bennett had done this earlier, he might have gotten another start or two in the big leagues this year and we could have really seen what he might be like.
And Holliday has benefited at Coors this year. His road #s are average.
Phils just tied it up against the Nats.
Well, I’d say they’re more pedestrian on the road, but I’d take .303/.370/.497 on the road any day.
Our boy Chipper on the road: .362/.439/.646
Okay, I take back what I said.
Acosta’s melting down, just like against Florida, but he got out of it. Yuck.
I want the Braves to win, but I hate seeing them help the Cubs.
I just want to keep winning. Screw who we help or hurt. I’m fully prepared to knock the Brewers and Phils out of the postseason this year. Sorry Ned.
Orr did something right for once!
One more inning for the Fish and the Mets go down again.
Bennett looked good tonight. I like Acosta, but the walks need to stop.
I emailed Jonah Keri, a writer for ESPN that wrote a 100 worst athletes or most aggravating athletes (something like that) and he emailed me back. I was upset Jim McIlvaine was not on the list. It was nice to get an email back acknowledging McIlvaine was a terrible signing by the Sonics (my NBA team). I should reply back with Chris Woodwards merits for the list.
BTW, Sounds of the game just alerted us to the fact Chuck James has horns on the front of his truck.
I don’t think Mahay is going to be back with Atlanta next year (barring a trade of someone else, at least). Right now, they’ve got:
Sori
Gonzo
Yates
Moylan
Ring
Ascanio
Acosta
Villareal
all under control for 2008. Acosta and/or Ascanio may have options left, but the rest won’t.
But I guess Gonzalez may not be back until a couple months into the season, so maybe there’s room after all.
the fish are going to give this one up. Bases loaded, nobody out.
Gregg strikes out Reyes, one away.
that’s a pretty nice looking pen. They could go with Mahay instead of Yates and have two good lefty options. I wouldn’t miss Yates a bit.
Hey, it is our old buddy Ray King. I can’t believe he keeps getting fatter. His picture on MLB.com is ludicrous, it looks like from the neck (what little of it there is) up he’s a giant lump of Play-Doh…
Time for Anderson to hit into a DP
I don’t think Villarreal (trade) or Ring (minors) are locks to be in the bullpen at the start of the 2008 regular season. Plus Ascanio sucks.
Keep Mahay.
3-run triple for Anderson. Dammit, dammit, etc.
wow. A triple for Anderson. That’s not like DP at all. 6-4 Mets.
I just watched the highlight (or lowlight) of Dillon is right field on McCann’s “RBI Single.”
What in the world happened out there. He looked like some kind of nightmare combination of Ryan Klesko and Adam Dunn in the outfield.
Braves win, I hate Kevin Gregg.
And there’s another “Where the hell was that when it would have mattered?” win.
Nice win, ho-hum. Wish I coulda seen Bennett. Sounds like he was damn-impressive.
Big Mets comeback, but the Phils keep phightin’.
That’s why the fish are the worst NL team. They’ll probably win the WS again in four years.
When the Braves have a five games winning streak, the Padres wins seven a row…luck is definitely not on our side…
Marlins making a little mischief in the 9th. One in, one on, one out, 7-5 now. And Sosa’s closing, not Billy Wags.
I am all for keeping Mahay. Make it happen, JS.
And, ahem, an E-5 on the MVP candidate. 7-6 now.
Recap is up.
Double. Runners on 2nd & 3rd with one out.
Mets are trying to blow it. Amazin’.