The visit to Philadelphia would be a perfect excuse to break out the Hall & Oates, but I will demur for now.
I have to ask: Is anyone getting the email notifications? I get them, but if nobody else is there’s really no point.
414 Comments
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Are the email notifications anything more special than what’s in the RSS feed?
Squeeze is just fine, Mac—as long as they win.
Of course, as long as it seems like good luck, you can play Helen Reddy for all I care.
A little wet in Philly today, but it may stop by gametime.
http://www.weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/USPA1276
It’s a plugin where the site informs you when I put up a new post. I don’t know if anyone but me is getting them, hence the confusion about when I put up a new post.
ubbuba,
Looks like we’ve got a window, but one thing I’ve learned to predict with 100% certainty is that weatherment don’t know shit.
Not raining in Philly now…
In response to your question on the previous thread, jjschiller, I’d actually prefer to have the solid #3 + Yunel, only I’d prefer to bat Yunel 8th.
Stu,
To be honest, if we really good find a reliable 3rd starter, even at the expense of Edgar, I’d be willing to do it.
I know you are a big fan of Ian Snell, but I like more what I am seeing from his teammate, Gorzelanny–would Gorzelanny fit the bill you think?
Yeah, I’d do it for Gorzelanny in a heartbeat. The problem is I think the Pirates would laugh in our faces.
What do you think about Matt Cain?
Fair enough.
Also from the last thread, I dropped this:
EDGAR
17 yo rk .288 .329 .350 .679 0 HR
18 yo a .203 .268 .232 .500 1 HR
19 yo a+ .253 .307 .292 .599 0 HR
20 yo aa .289 .329 .388 .717 7 HR
21 yo aaa .280 .326 .386 .712 2 HR MINORS
21 yo MLB .309 .358 .399 .757 5 HR MAJORS
22 yo MLB .277 .327 .340 .667 4 HR
23 yo MLB .282 .347 .342 .689 3 HR
24 yo MLB .275 .334 .400 .734 11 HR
25 yo MLB .278 .346 .423 .769 16 HR
YUNEL
22 yo rk .400 .472 .733 1.205 2 HR
22 yo a .313 .358 .470 .828 4 HR
23 yo aa .262 .359 .343 .702 2 HR
24 yo aaa .333 .379 .456 .835 2 HR
24 yo MLB .331 .373 .414 .787 1 HR
Yunel’s numbers were better at every level in the minor leagues. Of course, Yunel was old for every level where as Edgar was young or average for every level.
The point is, Edgar never showed ANY power until the ages of 24 and 25. Yunel is just getting to that age. Calling Edgar and Yunel drastically different players may be a year or two premature.
Age and experience don’t go hand in hand in this case, is my point.
Yunel might not BE exactly what he’s going to be. He’s BEEN ALIVE as long as Edgar had been when Edgar broke out, but he’s had 3 fewer years of PRO EXPERIENCE than Edgar had had.
My point is Yunel IS at least a .290 no-pop big-glove man.
I’d say after one more year we can see what he WILL be. Either a .310 no-pop big glove, or a .330, 15 HR big glove man… The second being just like Edgar, but with better defense.
ALSO, keep in mind, Edgar minor league seasons had AB totals of 163, 384, 439, and 508. Yunel’s AB totals in the minors were 30, 198, 428, 180.
So his rate stats might be reliable, but a TOTAL stat like homeruns, I’m not sure… He’s only seen 400 AB’s once, and that year was a step-back for him, a major adjustment.
There’s really no telling what he could do in a full season. I’ll give him 7 HR next year, if he’s our starting SS.
JJ-
I am one of the people on here who actually likes Yunel, I just like Edgar even more. Again, if Yunel is our everyday SS in 2008 because Edgar netted us a quality starting pitcher, I am fine w/ it.
Pssh, the rain is out of Philly. No worries.
I would take Cain 1a, Gorze 1b and then Snell.
I’d take any of those 3. I was trying to find teams that might be in the market for a SS.
Giants, Pirates, Tigers maybe? Who else can you think of?
JJ,
Response to your post’s in the previous thread.
Wouldn’t you guess that the Cuban league is at least the equivalent to AAA? If so then Escobar probably had just as much development time in an equivalent league as Edgar.
Alex,
It would be awesome if Edgar netted us a quality starter, its just not going to happen in this market, unless the trading partner is just dying to get rid of said quality starter. Which would probably mean one of two things, he’s hurt, or overpaid.
Guys, we’re not going to be getting a pre-arb, high-ceiling pitcher for Edgar.
The White Sox play Juan Uribe on a regular basis. And they have Javier Vazquez. Surely, something could get done there.
I don’t think you can make that comparison.
Yunel was supposedly a superior caliber player in Cuba. He came over, and dominated RK and A ball. AA competition caught up to him. So maybe AA is the level of play in Cuba? Double A was also his first time reaching 400 ABs. So maybe the grind caught up to him, I don’t have game logs available to me. And I don’t know how many GAMES they play a year in Cuba.
I just don’t know enough about Cuban baseball to make that comparison.
So for arguments sake, call all his years in Cuba years in AA. Edgar still had those same 3 years in the MAJORS, not in Cuba.
I just don’t see how people can say a 24 y/o 6’2 200 pound 1st year in the big leagues will have NO POWER and be very confident about it. Hell if if a 5’8 175lbs SS in philly can hit 20 HRs…nevermind. Let’s just watch.
Let ’em dream Stu, it doesn’t hurt anything. And hey, Dave Littlefield still exists and runs a team with some good young pitching so I guess anything is possible.
Without looking at salaries, I think I’d take Vasquez. Money changes my mind though.
I think that’s the caliber of pitcher you’re going to get for Edgar. 31-35 yo, 3.70-4.15 ERA guys.
Give Yunel a few years. Who knows, maybe he will be like Jimmy Rollins.
Tony I agree with you.
My stance is, all we have are numbers. You can’t be CONFIDENT about anything, that’s why they play the games.
And in this case, the numbers tell ME to go with Yunel.
It’s fun to discuss though.
Do you even think an American League team will take a chance on Edgar after that debacle in Boston? And now he has the label of a “National League Player”? The only thing that will keep Edgar from getting a top of the line starter is he has no speed and his defense is not anything to write home about. However he is only what 32 or 3y/o?
Yunel still doesn’t have a ton of ABs at the MLB level. It’s premature to declare he is going to be a consistent .330 hitter after 169 ABs. Francoeur was hitting about .400 around the same number of ABs which obviously didn’t represent his true ability. After the next few weeks while Edgar is out and Yunel gets to play everyday, we should have a little better sense of what kind of hitter he is. Yes, he may develop power with time, but right now he’s a singles hitter with little power, few walks, and average or worse speed. He’s got time to develop into something better. If he turns into Edgar in a few years, that would be awesome. If the Braves can trade Edgar for starting pitching and open a spot for Escobar and/or Lillibridge to play shortstop next year, that would make sense.
I should point out that Edgar’s listed age is incorrect, and he is actually one year younger.
Ron I never said he’d be a .330 hitter. I said RIGHT NOW he IS a .290 hitter, adjusting for the league catching up to him.
NEXT year I expect .290-.310 with 7 HR.. In a FEW YEARS I can see him being Edgar. .320-.330 12-16 HR.
And maybe he won’t. Another thing is that we’ve only seen him for half a year and we’ve only seen him start at his position for a week. I think everybody’s getting a little bit ahead of themselves here. Not that this doesn’t happen every single time somebody gets brought up and has a good week, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Nick, maybe you shouldn’t be surprised because you CAME TO A MESSAGE BOARD.
There’d be very little traffic if we just said ‘Great game last night, huh?’ Over and over again.
What else is there to talk about besides what MIGHT happen.
Tony,
I agree with you on the Edgar AL thing. I mentioned it on the last board. I think some AL teams would be scared. Also, if Edgar won’t get us Garland, why would we get Vasquez, who IMO, is a better pitcher.
Does anyone know if there is any data showing whether or not a player shows any improvement once he becomes an everyday player at a set position versus being a backup at multiple positions and not playing every day?
Not that this doesn’t happen every single time somebody gets brought up and has a good week, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Pretty much. Let the league make their adjustments to him and we’ll see if he survives.
Saying he’s just going to “become Edgar” is an eye opener. Edgar’s had a hell of a career, Yunel would be fortunate to have half of Edgar’s success as would any other young shortstop.
Trying to project players is like trying to predict the stock market; very uncertain and not an exact science. We don’t know how good Yunel is going to be but we do know how good Renteria is now. Personally, I don’t see the hurry to get rid of Renteria. Thirty-two isn’t that old but, by the same token, anyone with good young pitching is not probably going to part with it for him. If you can get someone fine; at this point, I think Edgar’s offense–which right now is certainly better than Yunel’s–is more valuable because the Braves are going to be an offense-oriented team for the near future at least. I would be willing to go with Yunel at shortstop if trading Edgar would substantially help the pitching staff, but I doubt that it would. Of course, given the joke that is the Pirates front office, maybe they would bite.
Ethan, because things change in the off-season versus mid-season. There is no deadline, there are no rash decisions, there’s time to pick out a suitable throw-in player.
Ethan,
1) The off-season thing mentioned by jjschiller.
2) I said something could get done, I didn’t say it would be a 1-for-1 swap.
No I do not get them Mac, but i would like too
Edgar’s success is one thing, Edgar’s numbers are another. When I say ‘Become Edgar’ I mean on any given year he might put up similar numbers to Edgar. Edgar has had off-years, Yunel might have off-years. I’m saying on any given off-season, piecing together a roster, you can count on Yunel to the same or to a similar degree to how you can count on Edgar.
I don’t mean he’ll play for 15 years and be an all-star x number of times and win y number of WS.
Traffic will go very slowly if we have to define every term we use before we use it.
Nick,
I think you are getting way ahead of yourself in stating what he will not do in the majors. How on earth are you so confident? I’m going by his approach, the way nothing seems to scare him, the confidence(the wink at Diaz before he got the game winning hit)…and I like what I see. He may not hit 10 or 20 homers, but I’ll be damn if I will sit here today and say he will not b/c of minor league numbers. Again I reference the cocky and GOOD Jimmy Rollins.
Maybe you need to back it up a bit…
I really think that Edgar’s value is highest for us at the trade deadline and not in the offseason. Someone would be willing to take on a young player at the beginning of the year over Edgar in hopes that they could save some cash and get lucky with a prospect. Our best chance trading Edgar for top value would be at the break when someone is needing to sign a big time player and to get immediate success….am I wrong here?
Yes, we knew what you were saying, JJ. I have a tough time believing Yunel is gonna put up those kinds of numbers, and I have no idea how you can extrapolate that based on the week you’ve seen so far. I will be shocked if Yunel puts up similar numbers to Edgar if he starts next year. I just really don’t think there’s any way you can expect a second-year player to be the team MVP (which is what Edgar has been). You are making a somewhat ludicrous leap in logic.
I’m with you Tony.
To BE CLEAR.
My eyes tell me Yunel is the real deal. I like his approach, and he seems polished and confident.
I can’t find anything in his numbers to tell me HE’S NOT THE REAL DEAL. His numbers don’t say HE IS. But Edgar’s numbers didn’t show what he’d become.
I’m not saying trade Edgar for whatever you can get, just to make room for Yunel.
I feel that Edgar’s value can be TURNED INTO pitching value. And then Yunel, who is ALREADY OUR VALUE, can FILL IN at a similar rate to what we already get from Edgar.
Stu & JJ
They turned down Renteria and Reyes for Garland.
Now that the farm system has been trimmed down,(to say the least) I don’t know who we would throw in to get a deal done that wouldn’t turn it into Williams fleecing us. Even if we had all offseason to talk about it.
I still think the safest bet is relying on Pittsburg’s insipidness or Sabean’s fetish for old players.
IF YUNEL STARTS NEXT YEAR
I EXPECT A .290 – .310 WITH 7 HR.
SHOULD I SAY THAT AGAIN?
Is that what Edgar is doing this year? No. Is that what we might get from Edgar next year? YES. You can’t tell me you really expect Edgar to do THIS again. What other time has he EVER done this?
They turned down Renteria and Reyes for Garland.
Really? I definitely never saw that one. If that’s true, we should not trade Edgar for pitching, because we can’t come close to getting value.
The Braves would most likely get a closer return in value for dealing Escobar instead of Renty. So given the fact that he is less talented and more tradeable, I would say trade Escobar.
Ok, I like many believe Edgar to the AL is out of the question. But what I don’t get is why so many of you think we could possibly trade Edgar to the likes of the Giants and Pirates. To me this makes no sense because both of these teams will not be competitive in the next couple of years – and after that Edgar will be in decline. So why would a team that will not be competing for a playoff spot spend money on a player that can only help them over the next couple of years. If we make a trade with either team, it will have to be for Escobar, not Renteria. That being said, we could probably pull off a trade with a team that looks to contend in the next couple of years, but what team in the NL would fit the bill that has a pitcher we would want and needs a SS in return?
Justin,
Escobar is under control for 5 more years.
Escobar makes $380,000
Edgar is a free agent after next season,
Edgar makes $11,000,000
How do you know he’s gonna be so good, Tony? You act like it’s common for a player to just blossom into an unstoppable offensive juggernaut.
Let me sum up your logic for you: Edgar Renteria and Yunel Escobar had similar numbers in the minor leagues. Edgar Renteria turned into one of the best shortstops in baseball. Therefore, Escobar will do the same.
I think it’s easier to assume that he is what he is right now than to assume that he will become an unstoppable offensive juggernaut.
And for what it’s worth, I’m not saying that he shouldn’t be our starting shortstop in the future. I’m saying that he shouldn’t be next year because we will likely be losing a hell of a lot of offense unless this incredible jump in stats that you’re assuming is going to happen occurs.
And if all we can get is a No. 3 starter for Edgar (something which we already have a ton of anyway), then we might as well keep him for another year and get the draft picks.
The point is, you can never extrapolate success from one player to another. In other words, Edgar is an established, all-star caliber shortstop. The odds are against Yunel (or any given player) replicating Edgar’s career. That doesn’t mean he won’t or that he even necessarily needs to, or that you cannot trade Edgar. But, right now, Edgar is the superior player and I would rather go with him another year than give him away for some mediocre third/fourth starter.
Stu, the Renteria for Garland rumor was reported by Gammons but then appeared to be corroborated, so maybe it was true. I think it’s being conflated there with the Escobar/Reyes for Arroyo deal.
And you could add at least 5-10 home runs to that total, JJ. Then you might be right.
Trivia Question of the Day:
Since 1921 (Joe Oeschger in the 4th inning on September 8th versus the Phillies for the Boston Braves), only one Braves player in franchise history has struck out the side on just nine pitches. Name him.
Hint: It has happened since 1990.
Renteria’s career averages: .291, 9.7 HR
Over the 5 seasons prior to 2007: .298, 11.2 HR
I seriously don’t see how you can just expect Yunel to equal Edgar’s offensive production next season.
Marc, If we had any pitching I’d agree with you. If we had more money to spend, to get some pitching, I’d agree with you.
Nick, we have no 3rd starter. We have 2 number 1s, 2 number 4s, and a hole.
We need someone who will pitch 200 innings at a major league average. Look at the teams that won the last 10 WS and look at the innings totals. Then look at ours.
The vast majority of the time you need 3 guys over 180. The benefits trickle down from there.
…and don’t forget we will all be saved by hampton’s return next year
Wow! I almost wrote that without laughing.
Stu I’m looking at the numbers too man. If you aren’t going to agree that in those FIVE seasons 2003 and 2007 aren’t MAJOR outliers, then you are just trying to win the argument, not actually trying speak the truth.
AAR,
I know all about those rumors. I never heard Reyes/Renteria for Vazquez prior to Ethan’s post.
AAR,
I know all about those rumors. I never heard Reyes/Renteria for Vazquez prior to Ethan’s post.
Well, if you aren’t going to agree that 2005 was a major outlier, then same to you.
JJ,
Thanks for reaffirming my point, teams will be more willing to give the Braves a fairer return on value for Escobar’s control for the next five years.
I didn’t include 2007. Of course it’s an outlier. I’m saying even without this outlier, his offensive production is very good. And we haven’t even begun to discuss OBP or SLG yet.
Is it Carlisle against the Padres on the last road trip?
Nick take the 5 years approach prior to 2005!
2005 backwards, BA’s of 276, 287, 330, 305, 260.
before that? 260, 278, 275.
Outlier my ass.
Justin they would definitely trade more value.
But why do the BRAVES want that deal? So they can back themselves into a corner of HAVING to sign Edgar to an extension, and not having a cheap replacement?
Very good Marc.
Buddy Carlyle
July 6th, 2007 – 4th inning – San Diego Padres (Khalil Greene, Russell Branyan, Jose Cruz Jr)
Lillibridge?
Nick,
No Nick you are not reading my posts. First of all I said Yunel and Edgar have the same approach at the plate. Are you going to deny that? And yes I do like what I see from him now. My question to you is why from what you see from him now…are you so certain he will be this super utility guy? Why are you so down on Escobar from what you have seen? If you are not impress with his consistentency, his clutch hitting, his approach at the plate…then you are not being a true judge of his play thus far. And to say things like he will never do this or never do that is indeed LUDICROUS, borderline idiotic. It almost seems deep down you want the man to fail. I don’t get you at all.
Furthermore, how are we doing right now with Edgar out? Give the man a chance to prove himself before you have him on a boat back to Cuba. Geez….
Okay Justin. Edgars established, and Escobar isn’t… But you want Lillibridge, he of 61 games at the TRIPLE A LEVEL.
Spikes in batting average don’t make a season an outlier, you have to look at the secondary numbers as well.
You still haven’t adequately responded to my posts, jjschiller. I’m waiting.
Not if you’ve committed yourself to one side of an argument and refuse to back down, you don’t, Justin.
Stu what do you want me to say? You want ME to crunch the OPS numbers for you?
All you said was ‘we haven’t gotten in to’ them.
I also said that I wasn’t taking 2007 into consideration in the numbers I listed. You didn’t respond to that.
I don’t want him on a boat back to Cuba. I just don’t want him as our starter NEXT YEAR. Good God, people!
Edgar OPS by season, reverse order starting 2007
879, 797, 720, 728, 874, 803, 685, 769, 734, 689, 667, 757
I’m not going to pick a stretch of years to make a point with.
My point is you can’t tell me which Edgar will show up next year. You HAVE TO ADMIT those numbers are random.
Nick,
Why Nick? Why don’t you want Yunel Escobar as our starting SS next year? Please tell me…especially if Edgar is gone?
Oh, if only Yunel could read english, I wonder what he’d think of the current thread. LOL.
879 and 874 being 2007 and 2003. I claim those are outliers. The 720 in Boston is NOT an outlier, when you look at the 728 the year IMMEDIATELY prior, and the other RANDOM YEARS OF BADNESS.
Edgar is not money in the bank. Escobar has EVERY CHANCE of putting up an average of those numbers.
What? If Edgar is gone then there’s no basis for the argument? I don’t want him as our starter next year because I want Edgar as our starter next year! You two have officially lost your minds in the process of trying to argue a perfectly legitimate point, but one I just disagree with.
THINGS THAT MAKE YOU GO HMMM..
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1186743354302470.xml&coll=2
Andy Marte will be out of options next year. Chipper can use a backup. Buy low, my friends. How hilarious would that be?
Wryn,
I remember seeing Carlisle do that and thinking, did he just do what I thought he did? I even played it back to count the pitches. I was shocked because I think that striking out the side on three pitches has only been done a handful of times. I was surprised that the announcers didn’t comment on it.
I don’t want Edgar run out of town on a rail. I’m not advocating making room for Yunel.
I’m SAYING THAT YUNEL CAN GIVE COMPARABLE NUMBERS AT A FRACTION OF THE COST.
And meanwhile Edgar can be converted in to SOME KIND OF PITCHING. I don’t know what pitching. I’m not a GM. But Pitching. Someone to throw the ball and get people out.
What do I have to say?
I don’t see how you’re so confident that Escobar could even turn in what you refer to as “random years of badness”. That .290/7 HR line you’re projecting certainly wouldn’t do it.
Edgar is not bad. Yunel is not bad. The argument is that Yunel is unproven. THIS IS CERTAINLY true.
But an assumption is being made that Edgar is money in the bank, but he IS NOT.
What? You don’t want him as our starter b/c you want Edgar? Really. That’s it? That’s the ONLY reason why you don’t want Yunel starting next year. Interesting.
We’ve lost our minds? I believe you are the one stating what this guy DEFINITELY will not do in his major league career. Hell, I think even Nostradamus would stay away from that one….
Yes, jjschiller, you keep saying (screaming) that Yunel could give comparable numbers, but you don’t back it up with any evidence other than “he looks like a player” and “uh, it COULD be done”.
Actually looking at Edgar’s career there aren’t really any outliers per se. An outlier is a year where the player either overperforms, or underperforms to an extreme.
What? You don’t want him as our starter b/c you want Edgar? Really. That’s it? That’s the ONLY reason why you don’t want Yunel starting next year. Interesting.
I’m not sure what’s so interesting about it. He’s only been saying exactly that from the very beginning.
I don’t see how you’re so confident that Escobar could even turn in what you refer to as “random years of badness”. That .290/7 HR line you’re projecting certainly wouldn’t do it.
2005 for Boston – Random year of badness.
.276 with 8 HR and 720 OPS.
2001 for St L – Random year of badness.
.260 with 10 HR and a 685
A 290 with 7 HR is BETTER THAN THAT.
You ask me for numbers and you don’t read them. There’s no way to argue with that.
Everyone remember the movie, “Old School”? I think we should have a series of contests (like the ones in that movie) between Edgar and Yunel–the person who accomplishes them better, gets to be our SS in 2008.
Bob Wickman has unfortunately been chosen to compete in the pole vault. It’s not going to be pretty.
Stu,
Jon Garland can be had, but Kenny Williams’ price is sky-high. The Diamondbacks, Dodgers, Mets, and Braves all have interest. The Braves had offered not only Edgar Renteria but a top pitching prospect, and still were rejected. Rosenthal expects Garland to stay put because as the asking price is not met.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/jon_garland/index.html
It’s the third from the top. I couldn’t find the link for the Rosenthal video (and since its Rosenthal it could just be BS) but in it he said the probable pitcher would be Reyes
And if Edgar can be turned into a No. 2 starter or better, I would probably go ahead and do it.
Otherwise IMO, it’s not worth it.
Unless there’s a necessary point to be made, I’m going to drop this now. I think we’ve pretty much gone everywhere we can possibly go with it.
In essence, I’m not willing to get rid of the team MVP for a player that is still kind of an unkown quantity unless we get a rotation-turning starting pitcher.
You are because you think that Edgar is playing over his head and that Escobar will blossom next year.
Justin I JUST SAID THAT. I said the numbers ARE RANDOM at BEST.
If an argument is to be made that ONE or the OTHER is true, then I say 2003 and 2007 ARE the outliers, NOT 2005 in Boston.
Nick you’re exactly right. That is my point and that is your point and we are square.
I’ve got Stu and Justin Parker trying to pick apart my WORDS instead of picking apart THE NUMBERS.
Ethan,
Wow. Like I said, let’s abandon the Renteria-for-pitching idea.
jjschiller,
I don’t regard 2001 as all that relevant for determining what Edgar’s 2008 season will be like. Sorry, I don’t. Kinda like how Aaron Harang’s ERA 4 years ago doesn’t reasonably predict what his 2008 stats will look like.
2005 is certainly more relevant. Maybe Yunel could do that. If we’re looking for outliers, though, you’ve found it there. Edgar is unlikely to repeat that.
I don’t know. Littlefield got stopper Matt Morris. Obviously, he thinks his team has a shot next year. He’s dumb enough, we could maybe get Snell or Gorzo for Renteria.
Stu I think the fact that Edgar has a 2001.. furthermore, a 1997… makes my point for me.
He’s been random his entire career. 5 years, 10 years. Random. And hes just getting older.
2005 is no outlier.
2004 287 10 HR 728 OPS
2005 276 8 HR 720 OPS
That’s back to back years man. You’ve got nothing man. I’m sorry.
Edgar is no guarentee. Just admit it man.
Why does everyone assume that Edgar will suffer a significant drop off next year? It’s not as if this year is completely off the charts for him. He has had years like this in the past, albeit not every year. Maybe he is at the peak and can continue this way for a couple of years, especially if you have Chipper and Teixera hitting behind him. Frankly, Cal Ripken’s numbers were all over the board too.
I don’t have any problem going with Yunel if trading Renteria will signficantly improve the pitching staff. But, clearly, at this moment, Renteria is superior offensively, although maybe not defensively.
I’m going to point this one thing out, and then I’m going to shut up for real this time:
You’re pulling those projected numbers for Escobar out of thin air. So I guess Edgar isn’t a guarantee, but your projected numbers for Escobar certainly aren’t either.
Nick you’re exactly right. That is my point and that is your point and we are square.
I’ve got Stu and Justin Parker trying to pick apart my WORDS instead of picking apart THE NUMBERS.
No, I’m looking at the numbers. The problem they present for you is that there really isn’t a way to construe them such that Escobar outperforming Renteria in 2008 is a reasonable prediction.
oh yeah lets try renteria for johan santana also!
Good college hoops article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=whelliston_kyle&id=2962930
jjschiller = Tony
I’m with you, Nick. No more from me. Obviously not constructive.
Trade one of your young studs for a 33 y/o SS. C’mon now.
Nick,
I will drop this, but I still want to know why you are so down on Yunel. Forget next year, I’m talking about what he is doing this year.
Unknown,
Not true. Tony doesn’t care at all about stats or their predictive value. jjschiller apparently does care; his analysis thereof just seems to come completely out of nowhere.
Stu.
If you can show me where I said Yunel will outperform Edgar next year, I’ll kiss your ass.
I don’t expect Escobar TO OUTPEFORM EDGAR.
I EXPECT COMPARABLE NUMBERS.
I’ve said that 3 or 4 times.
Can I say that a few more times?
I don’t EXPECT a significant drop for Edgar. I’m saying it’s not outside the realm of possibility. I do NOT expect a repeat of this year.
My numbers for Escobar are based on my comparison to his numbers and Edgars numbers at the same ages. In my mind, taking into account the difference in ages, Escobar and Yunel line up fairly evenly through the ages of 24. I expect them to line up comparatively at 25. I expect them to line up comparatively at 26.
Stu = Unknown
I’m gonna stick my 2 cents into this:
I could care less whether it Escobar or Renty at short next year. I think Renty gives us a better bat, but his defense is pedistrian. Escobar would be worth while at league level production at SS if his defense is as good as it seems to be.
That being said, if Renty can get us a true #2 starter, pull the trigger. If not, lets ride the Renty train one more year, and let Escobar take over after next season…
Regarding my numbers for Yunel.
They are what I expect. JUST ME. JUST WHAT I EXPECT.
I have no crystal ball. So in that sense, yes, they are from thin air.
Who’s attacking form over substance now, jjschiller? Strike “outperform”. My point still stands if it’s “perform as well as”.
I think we should have traded Escobar for Jack Wilson and Tony Armas Jr.
I’m not down on what he’s doing this year. I’m ecstatic about what he’s doing this year. He’s been very good. I’m not down on Yunel. I’m just higher on Edgar and KJ, for the arguments about the 2B platoon, which I’m sure will probably come up again when Edgar comes back. Although if Escobar continues playing this well, maybe the platoon with KJ isn’t quite as bad as I thought. Although I still think KJ should be playing everyday.
But anyway, I just think Edgar and KJ bring more to the table (at least offensively) than Escobar does at this point.
Well, technically, I should replace it with “performing as well as”.
Stu,
“Stats and their predictive valus” vs what is actually happening? Hmmm…I think I will go with the latter every time.
I’m not attacking your form over your substance.
I’ll say it this way:
Next year, Yunel’s numbers would fall in with Edgars career averages.
Yunel may IN ACTUALITY have a better year next year than Edgar does next year.
Edgar may IN ACTUALITY have a better year next year than Yunel does next year.
But the numbers Yunel puts up next year, IF HE WERE THE STARTER, I would expect to fall within the realm of what Edgar has done in ANY GIVEN SEASON.
Edgar at 33 will likely be better than Yunel at 25. But Edgar at 33 is also better than Edgar at 25. Does that make sense? But I expect numbers from Yunel that won’t make you MISS Edgar.
Keep in mind, Edgars FIRST year with the Braves doesn’t measure up to the best of what Furcal gave us. IN FACT, Furcal had a BETTER YEAR LAST YEAR THAN EDGAR. But it fell in line with what we could have expected from Furcal. So we didn’t miss Furcal.
Does that make sense? That’s what I expect from Yunel.
I was miffed until I realized you were kidding, unkown
Nick,
Point taken. Like I said about 80 posts ago, let’s just watch.
I think we should trade Unknown for a couple of ajc bloggers to be named later.
Hahaha
Tony have you watch Edgar play this year, have you seen his stats?
What the hell does this mean:
““Stats and their predictive valus” vs what is actually happening? Hmmm…I think I will go with the latter every time.”
Are you saying that Escobar is performing better on the field then Renty has before injury?
Edgar at 33 will likely be better than Yunel at 25. But Edgar at 33 is also better than Edgar at 25. Does that make sense? But I expect numbers from Yunel that won’t make you MISS Edgar.
This, I agree with. As I said, I’d be fine trading Edgar for quality pitching help (though Ethan has me more concerned about the availability thereof) and sticking Yunel in there in his place. My only quibble was with the idea that Yunel could be expected to give us as much as Edgar will offensively in 2008—I’m pretty sure that was your original point.
Tony, I think your an idiot who is obsessed with a male baseball player. You lost all credibility with me when you started talking about Race weeks ago on this board. Idiot I say, Idiot!
unknown, I dont think anyone would say that.
I don’t think Tony was being specific. I think he was stating his general stance. He trusts his eyes instead of the numbers.
Which is valid to a degree. Andruw has great career numbers. Judging by his swings against the Mets (what’s happening now) I don’t expect much against the Phils.
My point is that Renteria was playing better then Escobar before his freak injury.
According to DOB:
Either Wickman or Yates to DL, with Asciano being recalled
We can’t trade uknown for any amount of ajc bloggers
Anyways, i’m annoyed. I’m going to go watch Tiger kick everyones ass.
I DON’T KNOW WHAT WE’RE YELLING ABOUT.
There’s only one guy I really want the Braves to trade for in the offseason who might be on the market, and as much as a longshot as it is, I’d be happier than pigs in shit if they could trade for Johan Santana. I’d rather them keep Renteria to mitigate the probable loss of Andruw as much as possible.
your right Justin you can’t trade “uknown”.
Huh? Where did you get that from? I have not compared Edgar to Escobar at all except that they both have the same approach at the plate.
When he says “stats and their predictive values” I assume he was referring to Escobar’s minor league numbers predicting what he will do in the majors…or I maybe wrong.
No, Unknown I have not compared Renty stats to Esco at all, just their approach at the play.
they not them.
How about calling up Paronto, too, and putting them both on the DL? Heck, make it a three-fer, call up Devine and give Soriano a rest.
Your right, they both have the same approach, however Renteria has much more power.
But I expect numbers from Yunel that won’t make you MISS Edgar.
It would take some pretty good numbers for me not to miss a shortstop with a 133 OPS+. Even now when he’s hitting .325, Yunel’s only at 106. That’s a big gap and Yunel isn’t going to be a .325 hitter obviously.
Unknown,
You never had any credibility with me and for you to come on here calling me names shows what a “child” you are. Go back to what you doing…please.
All right, that’s enough. Stop it. Everybody. No more personal attacks.
JJ and Stu, I actually agree with both of you, though I’m not sure if that’s possible. Yunel’s been great — far better than I ever thought possible, as I’ve admitted — but Edgar has been the heart of our offense all season long and has been playing out of his mind. He’s clearly very, very comfortable with the Braves and with Bobby (back issues aside), and this lineup appears to bring out the best in him, since he started hitting the hell out of the ball the moment he came here last year. I don’t expect that to change next year, and I hope we pick up the option.
At the same time, Yunel has been little short of phenomenal. He’s the classic pesky shortstop, solid defense, sparkplug offense, capable of creating opportunities and making things happen on both sides of the ball. He’s a heck of a ballplayer already, and he’ll likely be a much better player than I gave him credit for, which was a backup. I’ve been very impressed by his professionalism and demeanor. If we lose Edgar, I’ll be glad to have him up the middle.
But I really really really hope we don’t lose Edgar. He’s been Chipper Jones without the injuries for us all year, until now. He’s been a rock, and when you find a guy like that, you have to hold on to him if you can.
I did not know this:
“Francoeur made an impression with Team USA in the World Baseball Classic when he confronted Alex Rodriguez after A-Rod berated a clubhouse kid for bringing him the wrong sandwich. That’s one way to earn points with your peers.”
Tony,
You must be kidding right, talking about people calling other people names? Anyone else remember a certain person named Tony cursing me out and acting like and Idiot? Why do the words Tony and Idiot seem to come up a lot?
LOL…Why would he come on here and attack me about a post I’ve written weeks ago? Wait are we sure Stu and Unknown are not the same? B/C Stu attacked me for a post I wrote 23 days ago. What’s going on??? lol
any more discussions about the SS position for today – delenda est
LOL, agreed, Alex.
My point from the beginning has been:
Edgar will likely not hit .336. next year, and that isn’t what Yunel should be held up against.
We were happy with Edgar last year, and he finished at .293
Edgar’s career has been .291 with a .757 OPS.. Those numbers I think are DEFINITELY POSSIBLE for Yunel next year. I think an avg within 5 and an OPS within 10 of that, and I would not miss Edgar at all.
And I, personally, expect that to be the case. Disagree with that. Fine. That’s why they play the games. Tell me you aren’t sold because he isn’t ‘proven.’ But admit to me that Edgar is NOT PROVEN TO BE a .336 hitter with an 879 OPS. You cannot EXPECT those numbers.
I would not call you crazy if you told me today that you expect .312 and 810 from Edgar for 2008. Yes, that is probably going out on less of a limb than my prediction for Escobar. But I personally would feel comfortable with my prediction for Escobar.
So I, if I’m GM, put Edgar on the block and see what I can get.
The next comment, and all future comments on this thread, which I consider inappopriately personal, will be permanently deleted. This means you.
Unknown,
Of course they remember. However for you to come in here and start with me today…I don’t know what does that say about you? I’m relaxing and talking baseball, you throwing insults. What’s your deal man?
I have a solution hang onto both Edgar and Escobar and put Escobar in center, since he so superduper, then he should be able to win a Gold Glove out there.
Sheesh–I thought it was hot outside, but you fellas are adding more heat. 🙂
I’d love to have both Renteria and Escobar on next year’s team. The rub is that I’d also like to have another starting pitcher (or two) and it might take trading Escobar or Renteria to get pitching. (There might also be a CF hole to fill.) I don’t know now which I’d be more inclined to deal away–it’d probably depend on what other teams offer for them.
Mac, breathe and take a drink from Winston the Watercooler. It may help.
wait wait wait….
We’re upset that we have 2 quality shortstops? What a horrible problem to have!!11!!!oneone!!1!eleven!!shift-one!!11!!
Here are the scenarios:
1) Keep them both. Renty and KJ start next year, with Yunel platooning/filling in. Lose Renty to free agency the following year and get draft picks, Yunel takes over SS.
2) Trade Renty+ for a 2/3
3) Trade Yunel+ for a 2/3
Oh the horror!!!!
🙂
PS I trust Schuerholz to do what’s best for the Braves
135 Robert – You expect Edgar to put up 325 AVG and a +133 OPS next year?
YOU would miss Edgar because you’ve only seen him for 2 years, one good, and one great.
But look at his numbers and tell me you feel confident he will put up 325 AVG and a +133 OPS next year.
And now we’re back to the beginning and I’m arguing with people who haven’t even read what I said the first time.
I’m out.
For gods sake, people, stop acting like 12-year olds. Stop with the name calling. We are talking about baseball, people. Geez, I guess this is truly the world of the internet. This is not very pleasant.
What Marc said. I’m serious, people — be civil, and stop acting like Mets fans.
I’m cool…I was having a discussiong with Nick, and then out of nowhere Unknown comes with the idiot comment and crying about a post I wrote weeks ago. I just want to know what his deal is…seriously?
Justin, he is super-duper, and since you don’t have any statistics to make an argument that he’s not, let’s start talking to eachother like we’re 5.
Instead, I’ll respond as if an adult asked me the question:
Escobar is not particularly FAST, and neither is Edgar. Both are already major leaguers. A better solution might be to sign a hold-over, and convert Lillibridge to center, as he IS fast, and is in the minors where the learning curve wont hurt the big league club.
Seriously though. I’m out. Sorry if I pissed anyone off.
Someone brought this up earlier, and I wanted to return to it, because it’s the kind of goofy thing I could use on a Friday afternoon: trade scenarios for Johan Santana.
What would you give up for Johan?
Me, I’d offer Tommy Hanson, Brandon Jones, Kala Kaaihue, Yunel Escobar, Scott Thorman, and my right kidney.
Good job JJ…
So…How bout them Mets?
and…How come everyone virtually ignored the question Smitty asked about what kind of cheese you would want to be?
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned because I left for a while, but I read that Ascancio (spell?) has been called up.
And now we’re back to the beginning and I’m arguing with people who haven’t even read what I said the first time.
I’ve read it. It’s just wrong. I’m funny like that.
Esco would be an adequate starting shortstop but a step down. If trading Renteria helped us to make that up somewhere else then it would be fine. Basically the same thing all the other sane people have been saying.
Mac,
My wife is a grade school teacher, I can have her sit in for awhile and hand out detentions and unecessary writing assignments, or the dreaded, shall I say it? REFERAL
“stop acting like Mets fans.”
OUCH
Wasn’t it after the LaRoche trade that we read PECOTA projected Lillbridge to be able to replicate Renteria or Furcal’s numbers within a couple years? I don’t know why I’m bringing it up, because (1) I doubt it and (2) I don’t care who the shortstop is next season. Ultimately, though, I’m with Marc: the market for pitching is so outrageous that it’s doubtful Renteria will net us anyone of real value. It just seems that established players – at least, position players – have less value than some prospects. (this is why certain GMs are better than others; they know how to inflate the value of their prospects and then pull the trigger… Bill Stoneman is not one of these)
Anyway, I’m going to the Philly game Sunday night. I lived there years ago and know how those fans are crazy. If you are watching and see a Braves fan being attacked by 14 fellas from South Philly, that will probably be me. I don’t care, it’s a pennant race.
I’d wait and give him a 30 mil a year free agent deal. Lets raise the payroll to 150 mil and keep those guys you mentioned. That is a win/win if you ask me.
Adam M,
Just make it out alive my friend…lol
AAR,
Re Santana, here’s a scary thought for Braves fans. The Nats are moving into their new ballpark and will have lots of money to spend. Do you think . . .? That would make a splash.
JoshQ,
I thought Smitty’s question was for DOB.
My answer: bleu cheese. No clever rationale. I just love bleu cheese.
I’d probably be willing to give up both of AAR’s kidneys for Santana. I believe beedees testicles were made available a few weeks ago, too.
The nats can try and make that splash, but if there is a real contender right there with them, then Santana would probably not choose the nats. Just a hunch though.
By the way Mac, I have never received any email notifications.
The Nats have fans?
They have 2 fans, I saw them both smoking crack with Marion Barry and Jim Bowden the other day….
I haven’t received any e-mail notifications either.
I can’t wait until the new stadium is finished here in DC…I can’t believe how much progress they have made.
Second Spitter…
Be careful talking about Marion Barry…you might go missing. That guy is like a King around here…
Registered users with legitimate email addresses should get notifications. I don’t know why you aren’t unless they’re getting filtered out as spam.
Did we call up Ascanio? I read that on another post, if so who for? Yates?
Anyone who can get caught smoking rocks on camera, and still get re elected IS a king…
how do we know if we are registered? I dont get anything
CSG,
No he hasn’t been called up…
Do you remember the politician who said, “My lawyer said I should not call you a lying sonofabitch, so I won’t”?
Coop,
I cant say for sure, but I would guess Huey Long or Wallace
But the “bitch set me up” is an alltime classic isn’t it?
DOB’s latest:
THIS JUST IN: Wickman’s forearm is fine, just some inflammation. Had an MRI (we weren’t told that) yesterday at a NY hospital, then had CT scan today at a Philly hospital. Both came back negative, which is of course, positive (that medical terminology always gets me).
Anyway, he’s able to pitch right away. BUT they’re activating ACOSTA and sending down PRADO, to give them an extra pitcher for at least a few days.
By the way, asked Bobby who’d close if Wickman couldn’t and he said they had three who could _ Soriano, Dotel and … Moylan. Yes, he said it.
I had been registered with a college email address and that probably filtered out your notifications. I went in and updated to my gmail account, so we shall see if that works.
Bobby giving props to Moylan. Bout time.
By the way, asked Bobby who’d close if Wickman couldn’t and he said they had three who could _ Soriano, Dotel and … Moylan.
And of course it the situation is really tight – Oscar.
And Yates if it isn’t a clear save situation, just so he can make it into a save situation or a tie ballgame.
Nobody seems to mention the fact Smoltz will retire after this season. He looks gassed as hell. I hate to say this but . . . he did hold up better in the bullpen. I didn’t really appreciate his work there till he left.
“Took down Smoltz-paradise, put up a Sorri-parking lot”
What about one of the Cubs pitchers for Edgar? They look like a team on the rise and their shortstop is Ryan Theriot or Mark DeRosa. Maybe they’d be willing to deal. They’ve got a few #3’s if I remember correctly.
Beltran back in the lineup tonight for the Mets.
The Marlins are starting someone named Daniel Barone. Don’t look for much help from them tonight despite the fact that the Mets are running Brian Lawrence out there.
Speaking of the Marlins, it is rare that you hear about Cabrera/Ramirez like you always do about Wright/Reyes. I know, NY media bias and all that, but still- which left side would you prefer? Seems like a reasonably easy choice to me.
why will Smoltz retire after the season? He just signed an extension and the team, as a whole, should be better next year
Padres Awarded Claim On Kei Igawa
The Padres were awarded a waiver claim on Kei Igawa today, a pitcher they pursued in the offseason. A healthy dose of a National League pitcher’s park may be just what Igawa needs. As Ken Rosenthal notes, all AL teams as well as clubs like the Dodgers, Rockies, Cardinals, Cubs, Phillies, and Braves passed on Igawa. I’m surprised the Mariners passed, also.
The Yankees and Padres now have 48 hours to work out a trade. The Yankees could just dump the contract on the Padres, but it’s really not that bad since the posting fee is a sunk cost. Igawa gets $4MM annually through 2011, which is really cheap if he can be even league average.
I can’t see Smoltz retiring after this season unless he somehow comes down with a major injury in the next month and a half. John needs another 20-30 wins probably to seal his HOF candidacy. I see him continuing to pitch until Bobby retires.
Brandon Jones is now hitting .321 in AAA
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Brandon%20Jones&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=447761
Dotel to the DL
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070810&content_id=2141265&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
I love Moylan as much as anybody, and think that what he has done this year is incredible. However, I wish we had another reliever who was as trustworthy, because I don’t want Bobby to do to Moylan in August what he did to Yates in June (and Soriano all year…).
Why Acosta and not Paronto? Paronto was actually pitching really decently before he was sent down. I guess if Moylan’s the go-to guy for a double play Paronto can’t fill that spot (that’s what he was for us last year, right?) Anyway, curious as to why it wasn’t Paronto.
Whenever Yankee fans refuse to own up to the fact that they are in a unique position regarding salaries—and there are some, kinda like Flat-Earth Society people—I always point to the Kei Igawas & Drew Hensons of the world (aka their multi-million-dollar minor leaguers).
If they make a huge, expensive mistake regarding their talent evaluations, it doesn’t hurt them so much. That’s quite a luxury.
Braves
SS Escobar
LF Diaz
3B Chipper
1B Teixeira
RF Francoeur
CF Andruw
C McCann
2B Johnson
P James
Phillies
SS Rollins
2B Iguchi
LF Burrell
1B Howard
CF Rowand
3B Helms
RF Werth
C Coste
P Hamels
DOB is reporting that Dotel has been placed on the DL with a strained shoulder; Prado staying up. Blah.
So, Acosta is essentially replacing Dotel. That makes more sense.
Darn. Well if nothing else, that trade got rid of Kyle Davies so I still like it.
I jokingly suggested that Dotel would last 5 innings for us this year, and it’s even worse.
Ron,
That’s ridiculous.
I hope Dotel isn’t out that long.
Stu, Davies delenda est remember? :p
Is Dotel a FA at the end of the year? Maybe we can get a couple of draft picks for him a la Baez.
I think Dotel has a player option at $5MM.
I dont want him at $5 mil, I’d rather just keep Ascanio
use that money and keep Ascanio and resign Mahay
Free Joey Devine!
I hate games against the Phillies. It feels like Jimmy Rollins always leads off with a double or a triple.
Diaz for everyday!
I love DIAZ~~ DL Andruw and move Willie to center
Matt Diaz, Clean Up Hitter??
I agree csg!
TEX 2-0
Tex! Chippah! Diaz! I love it!
Wow, so far, we’re treating Hamels like he’s Lance Cormier. Fun.
Kick ass. Let’s get him outta there.
Sheesh Andruw.
CLASSIC Andruw. Shocking.
Burrell could’ve gotten to that…can we knock out Hamels before the inning is over?
more good news Mets are down early to the Marlins
Andruw is really starting to become abolutely useless, if you’re hurting bench yourself. You are killing the team
good news..Mets are losing
McCann!
I love McCann
Awesome…..the cans are dancing!
if the pitcher gets a hit they may pull Hamels….batting around in the 1st – love it
Hello Philly,
These are the new Braves & we’re slapping your best pitcher.
Cole Hamels in Pig Latin is Hole Camels. Just sayin’.
Andruw Jones is at the point where I’m just glad when he doesn’t hit into a double play.
Wow, James got better wood on the ball then Andruw. Sad.
Great inning boys. Now James needs to have a 7 pitch first inning. That would be sweet.
guys cant stay, the wife is calling…keep us in there
4 runs, 5 hits.
If you had told me that’s all we’d get off Hamels for his portion of the game, I’d have taken it.
Let’s go, Chucky. Don’t let this become a shootout.
ummm, Joe Simpson, who are you commentating for…the Braves or the Phillies? What the hell was that?
Do the Braves EVER retire Jimmy Rollins in his first at-bat?
Crap. Dammit, this guy is not a third starter. We’re going to waste those 4 runs, aren’t we. We HATE success.
Looks like four runs wasn’t enough for James.
Awful. Chuck, just because you ahve a four-run lead doesn’t mean you need to squander it immediately.
I can see where this is going. Braves let the Phillies back into it, Braves get shut out rest of the game, bullpen blows it in late innings.
Thanks, Chuck.
Just un-fricking-believable.
I hate this team so very much.
Completely and utterly embarrassing.
You’ve got to be kidding me.
Chuck James, delenda est.
I am physically ill. I just want to throw up.
Should have pinch-hit for him in the bottom of the first.
Even if we make the playoffs, our pitchers are a bunch of candy ass pansies outside of John and Tim.
And to freaking WES HELMS.
How the hell can you NOT make four runs last even one inning!?
Carlyle is the No. 3 starter.
James is such a batting practice pitcher. Just wait until he starts walking people in front of the homerun hitters in the 2nd or 3rd inning.
By the way, I freaking HATE THE PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES. I HATE THAT CITY, THAT ORGANIZATION. HATE THEM.
I guess I spoke too soon
Looks like we’re in a hurry tonight and don’t want to wait till the 8th-9th to blow it.
Oh, and I HATE Chip Caray.
Great point Chip…. He might not make it out of the first, let alone the fifth
Oh that’s lovely.
OMFG I’M GOING TO COMPLETELY SPAZ OUT OVER EVERY SINGLE BAD THING THAT HAPPENS EVEN IF WE PLAY 162 GAMES!!!!!!!!!11111 I’M JUST KERRRRRRRRRAAZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY LIKE THAT. WHO CARES IF IT’S THE FIRST INNING!
I guess you can’t be successful throwing 75 mph belt high change ups
Well… Chuck did it using 6 fewer pitches?
That’s something huh? We’re still.. ahead in.. pitch.. counts..
bluh.
I don’t think either pitcher has much tonight.
UGGGGGGGH. I completely hate it when pitchers are given a bunch of runs then the very next time they take the mound they give them all back. James needs to learn a sinker and a slider in the offseason or else he’s going to find himself in the bullpen or Kansas City before long.
Prediction: The bullpen will get taxed tonight.
I know. This is BOLD of me.
(Oh, and now Chip Caray is complimenting LaRussa…sickening…yes, Ankiel is a great story but enough with the LaRussa love).
Cole Hamels doesn’t give up too many big innings. The Braves are probably going to regret blowing the lead so quickly.
On the first day of Christmas I gave to Chip Car-ay, a muzzle for his stupid face.
Might as well get Villarreal warmed up.
What happened to Rowand?
Possibly sore shoulder aggrevated by swing and a miss.
Rowand left with blurred vision in his right eye…adding to the weirdness of this game.
Shoulder injury in a swing. Reaggravation.
Chip Caray is the worst sports announcer in the history of world.
That’s better, Chuck.
Gameday says an injured head. I thought that was curious.
It’s like James is copying Hamel’s innings.
HOLY CHRIST CHUKC JAMES IS THE BST PITCHER EVER!!!!!11
Oh that was Rowand they were talking about with blurred vision? I was only half-listening, Chip was talking.
It’s good to see the Ledezma trade paying off for the Braves… he started for the Padres tonight and gave up 4 in 2 1/3, potentially putting us in 1st in the wild card by night’s end.
Good God, Brian, don’t scare me like that.
275 … Four in 2 1/3? Our guy has given up four in two!
Yeah we could have used an outing like Ledezma’s tonight..
Ron, glad to hear it. If only we had held our 4 run lead.
Alright let’s see a quick inning by Chuck here.
The Braves seem to be blowing a lot of four run leads lately.
I’d like to have Belisle back. Didn’t we give up him and Bong for Reitsma? That blew.
Belisle went for Mercker in 2003. Bong and Nelson, neither of whom amounted to anything, went for Reitsma.
From that I think we can safely infer that the Reds got the better end of the deal.
Hammels at 60 pitches thru 3 innings. Be nice to make him work hard the next couple innings and get into their bullpen.
Good, quick inning there.
Okay maybe my vague statements of encouragement are good luck.
Let’s plate one here.
Chuck has settled down.
Reitsma was pretty good for us, before Bobby killed his arm.
I like Esco killing time there, hitting after the pitcher.
He knows the little things already.
I think it’s a reach to blame Bobby for Reitsma.
He has arthritis. Arthritis isn’t high up there on the list of common pitching injuries.
Reitsma was always miscast as a late inning reliever.
Lets get some offense going before Rollins hits again.
Beltran just hit a 3-run homer. 3-2 Mets in the fifth.
We swing at the first pitch every inning.
Padres have taken the lead as well.
For God’s sake, make Hamels throw a few pitches!
I don’t see this inning going smoothly for Chuck.
Chipper and Francoeur saw all of 3 pitches combined. Way to make Hamels work, idiots.
The Braves aren’t doing a very good job making Hamels work. I think it’s three innings in a row now for the Braves that the first hitter grounded out on Hamel’s first pitch of the inning.
Well I guess that WAS smooth. Now is when I shut up.
Way to take a pitch KJ
More first pitch swinging.
God I hope KC hires Pendleton to be their manager this offseason.
Nice play Kelly.
Just gotta gut this one out, folks.
What a bizarre game.
Well as little as we’re making Hamels work.. They are doing worse making Chuckie work.
Pretty good outing for Chuck considering the first inning and the stadium.
POST 261:
“Prediction: The bullpen will get taxed tonight.
I know. This is BOLD of me.”
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzztttttttttt wrong.
Dane Cook delenda est…f’n seriously. This dude is gonna be the death of me.
For the love of God, take a pitch! At least make him through more than two pitches per at bat.
Oh my God, another first pitch groundout, this time from Escobar. I think that is five or six innings in a row now with at least one Braves’ batter making a first pitch groundout.
MORE FIRST PITCH SWINGING!
*CHOKES SELF*
This is simply unreal.
Um, why is Moylan coming in to pitch against the bottom of the order?
Maybe Moylan will go two? I’d do it, assuming he does good in the seventh inning.
Bobby will bring in Yates in the 8th to pitch to the heart of the Phillies order.
Game over.
Game over.
Oh well.
What a time to give up a run, Peter.
Ballgame.
Jeremy owns me a caffeinated beverage.
I miss Renteria.
Can’t really blame Moylan but I would’ve left James in.
Well, the Phillies bullpen is nothing special, so we have a chance.
We will win, doggone it.
How awesome is Erik Bedard?
And so much for Teixeira’s gold glove abilities, he should have handled Escobar’s throw.
Guys, giving up is lame.
Sorry, but it is.
Awful, Larry.
Romero looks nasty. Wasn’t he DFAed by Boston?
I think so. He has more BBs than Ks on the year.
Oh no, Andruw….
Step into one, Andruw.
Why is Andruw batting 6th, again?
ububba,
I was supposed to be at a barbecue 40 minutes ago. I haven’t given up.
I try to believe, I try to be optimistic, but there is no one I would rather not see up right now than Andruw.
BOO!
Andruw is so goddamn worthless.
Should Andruw be on the DL, or can he just not hit?
God he sucks. I’d rather have Woodward up there than him.
Can we please put Andruw on the Disabled List so he can effing heal?
This crap, every night, is going to kill me before the season is over with.
Free Daryl Hall.
yates. great idea.
Cox’s lefty-vs.-righty obsession is yet again going to hurt the Braves. McCann, Johnson due up with no one really but Thorman (and Miller and Woodward) on the bench. Mix it up Cox.
Whoever said Yates against the heart of the order deserves a cigar.
Andruw should be DLed. He has absolutely nothing up there.
YATES?!?!?!?
Can we trade Andruw Jones, Joe Simpson and Chip Caray for Harry Kalas?
Here comes Yates to pitch to the middle of the order.
Bobby’s game management this week has been atrocious.
It was me Dan. The sad thing is I was half-joking. I didn’t really think he’d do it.
Bobby’s going with that ‘momentum’ thing.
You bring Yates in the game, BOOM, you’re in a jam!
If he gets out of it, you’ve got momentum!
Maybe if Yates melts down we can finally banish him to Richmond.
Yeah really, Braves14.
It’s as good a time as any, we’re already losing. Let him implode tonight and get sent down.
There’s really nothing left to say about Andruw. I wish his contract had expired in August or something.
And this Yates appearance is perplexing, to say the least.
it’s past the trade deadline in my fantasy league. i might have to DFA andruw.
Stu,
Andruw Jones is a Brave we can agree on.
Whew, Tom Gordon warming up and not some hard-throwing sidearm left-hander.
346 — We do have Harris available to PH.
Yates strikes out the side.
McCann, Johnson, and a pinch hitter (Thorman?) due up in the 9th.
We got a shot.
how did yates just do that? where did that inning come from?
Struck out the side!
I’m willing to stick my neck out and say that Andruw Jones is still one of my favorite players. A guy plays hurt and doesn’t whine and he gets pasted every night for his diminished performance. If he begs off to get better people complain that he’s a china doll.
Why the HELL can’t he pitch like that with a fricking LEAD
If Yates could find control on a regular basis he’d be a fine pitcher.
“We do have Harris available to PH.”
That was the point. No one but with power but Thorman, and no right-handers worth a crap. If the Phillies still had Billy Wagner, the Braves’ chances would be absolute zero instead of the 15% chance they have now.
Yates looked dominant. That’s another month of high-leverage Kali, folks.
Swings,
No that’s only Chipper (being called a China Doll)
I think it’s pretty apparent to everyone that Andruw is really really really really really hurting the club right now.
Like, really, really.
Here we go a lose by one run cause druw sucks it.
Good start.
Willie to run?
Let’s just pull out the old Todd Pratt jokes of last year with regards to Yates.
“Well, another three weeks of playing time.”
Please don’t bunt with KJ.
Damnit, Crapward.
Good start…
“Willie to run?”
Thankfully not or he’d get caught stealing.
Don’t let this be like the ninth on Tuesday and Wednesday, guys.
I put that down to management. They need to realize when a guy is too hurt to do his job and sit him. Andruw shows up, toughs it out, and runs out there when he’s in the lineup. I know he’s better than what he’s shown this year. My only hope is that this gets him back on the home 9 for next season.
Harris and Escobar. Can we do it?
Damn Johnson, he swung on a pitch that would have made it 3-0, and then a pitch that would have been ball four if he’d taken the previous pitch.
Could have been worse… KJ really doesn’t impress me sometimes.
Kelly would’ve walked on four pitches had he just stood there.
Come on Willie. See a few pitches here.
Maybe some of you don’t realize, but it’s kinda hard to hit a baseball. This forum really needs a block function.
Going to give Gordon the benefit of the doubt, eh, ump?
Come on Escobar.
let’s make it happen, kid
LOL ok swings, thank you captain obvious.
go ahead and WP that run home gordon
take — make him pitch
Hate to say it but if we can’t win these type of games we aren’t going anywhere even if we did make it to the playoffs.
Bullcrap. This umpire is really helping Gordon.
Strike 2 wasn’t close to the plate. Ugh.
One step forward, two steps back.
Damn.
How can the ump give him those calls when he cant get a pitch over the plate.
.500 ball doesn’t cut it
Game over, season over..
Strike 2 on Escobar was Eric Gregg-ish
And Cormier goes tomorrow…..
cormier. ugh.
Is it just me or have we had some terrible home plate umpires recently?
If it were so obvious then maybe you wouldn’t whine everytime someone makes an out toolbelt.
Escobar makes the last out so he lost the whole game. Way to go buddy.
Don’t look now, but it’s 4-3 Fish! Double scores two off Wagner!
Win one, lose one…win one, lose one…
Why is KJ hacking after SIX straight balls?
Book it, we’ll lose 2 of 3 this weekend, if not all 3.
Sweet, season’s over so maybe no more dumbass posts until next season.
By the way, wretched call on Willie’s strike 2. Clearly low.
Tonight’s a night where we clearly missed Renteria’s bat (and glove)
Tom, U guess you’re talking about that ball that Escobar threw by Tex.
Rent doesn’t even get to that ball. That’s in to left field and the run scores anyway.
I guess, not U guess.
LOL Swing, you are a little girl. Got some sand in your vagina?
jj, I think Renteria would have gotten to the ball but would not have had enough range to get the throw off. Even if he couldn’t reach it, worst case scenario is it’s 1st and 3rd.
More importantly, however, it’s nights like these where Renty’s bat could have sparked the team. The punchless offense after the 1st was awful.
Damn. No such luck.
Guess you do…