ESPN – Red Sox vs. Braves Box Score, June 20 2007 – MLB
I was concerned about Buddy Carlyle against the Red Sox; he’s a guy without great stuff who’s always around the plate, so I figured he could run into problems against such a strong offense. I didn’t expect him to give up five runs in the first and two more in the second and three homers in the two innings, but that’s what he did. So much for this game, but it just went on and on and eventually it was 11-0 and the Braves, once again, had only five hits. Nobody had more than one hit or an extra-base hit.
Villarreal pitched well in his mopup role, but Moylan gave up another homer and Soriano — who doesn’t pitch well in lost causes — gave up three runs including a two-run homer.
Joey Devine pitched the ninth unscathed. He was called up to fill the spot of Macay McBride, who was dealt to the Tigers for no readily apparent reason. The Braves got Wil Ledezma, who can basically be described as a slightly older version of McBride. I’ll write him up tomorrow, probably. Devine will probably be sent down when Ledezma arrives. Of course, he was coming in on Friday with the Tigers anyway. I wonder if McBride will just hang out in the visitor’s clubhouse tomorrow. I probably would.
Oscar Villarreal — the new Flavor of the Week!
You know the game is embarrassing when you won’t even watch it at the gym. Every time I clicked it on, it just got worse.
Oh well, next. Bring on the Tigers & let’s hope Smoltz is OK. Again, everyone in our division lost, except Florida.
RodBroad4th,
To answer your question from the previous thread, I live in Bayville, Long Island, the place where Billy Joel keeps wrecking his car. But I’m moving to Long Island City, Queens, at some point this winter.
Does anyone want to win this division?
I think the best way to look at all this is that if the Braves can survive this string of playing the A.L.’s elite teams (which it seems they will by default) and not fall out of contention, than that’s a victory in some respect.
But, I’m still unhappy.
Actually only a good outing by comparison for Devine. Three straight singles, the last of which Varitek declined to advance to third on (thrown out by Golden Boy), so really 2 singles and a fielder’s choice. Then the 2 K’s.
Just in from the game…in a word, it was “pitiful”. Julian Tavarez has achieved Rick Vanden Hurk status by bringing in a big ERA and shutting down the Braves feeble offense.
I realize the team is only 1.5 games out, but this team needs to start playing better if they are going to do anything. Shoring up the rotation will help, but guys like Hudson, Andruw, McCann and Francouer need to step up their games and play a little more like the supposed “star players” they are. The GM can only makes so many moves. the guys on the team need to perfrom too. Still, the rotation is extremely mediocre, with question marks at every turn, and that needs to be addressed too and not with has beens like Carlyle and Redman.
How can the team be shutted down by Tavarez out of all people?! The lack of energy and spirit is killing me…and why on earth is Soriano is pitching tonight?!
Ububba,
That’s my neck of the woods. I live in Astoria at the end of the NW line. It’s a great area, I think you’ll like it.
I’m debating whether or not to catch another game at Shea. The game I went to was the Chuck James afternoon game where they got battered.
It’s more that the offense didn’t see the sense in trying to overcome a five, then seven, and eventually eleven run deficit that would, and did, grow with time. There’s a difference between being shut down and quitting. Neither is all that great. And Soriano has to pitch sometime…he’ll be fine.
Rob,
I’ll probably be at one or both of the Aug. 7-8 games (as well as that weekend in Philly). Gimme a shout & we’ll connect at Shea.
I’ve been going to Braves games at Shea since 1990 and, even last year, I usually see them stomp the Mets. I’m the rabbit’s foot.
LIC’s gonna be interesting. I’ll be right next to the 59th Street bridge, across the street from the subway with the 7 and the N, very close to the LIE. As close to Manhattan as you can be, but with access to LI where I work. Nice (I hope). But I will miss the beach.
This must be what it feels like to be a D-Rays fan. We really couldn’t have looked more pathetic these last two nights. Not that this was surprising or unexpected.
One of the great mysteries of this season to me is why we don’t just let the Vulture start instead of having him pitch well every fifth day when the game is already lost.
While it is comforting to only be 1.5 out, the fact is the Braves should be in first if they were playing .500 ball over the last month and a half. That is what sucks. The mut$ have been playing even worse ball with several key injuries and Atlanta can’t even take advantage of the situation.
Now what is up with the trade. I have put my take on it at http://reedshead.blogspot.com. I look forward to Mac’s assessment of the deal tomorrow.
Uhm, that would be
http://reedshead.blogspot.com
This is where Bobby earns his money…do you give the team the day off tomorrow amd let them clear their heads, or do you air them out fo the lackluster effort the past 2 nights.
Watching the game in person, there looked to be some awfully sluggish play out thee tonight. The Sox, however, looked crisp (no pun intended).
Ububba,
You’re right off of Queensborough from the sound of it, very nice.
I’ll try to buy my tickets to a game in the August series some time soon. It would be cool to meet up at Shea so keep me posted.
ER, I don’t really have much to add to what you wrote. I don’t get the deal, but all I have are statistics. The Braves’ scouts may see something in Ledezma that the stats don’t. They have been right before on occasion.
One thing about Ledezma is that he was initially a Rule 5 pick, and he stayed up all year in 2003(?) for the Tigers. There may be a little hidden potential there that just hasn’t been tapped, and his career numbers are probably hurt a little bit, anyways.
Mac,
I do hope that the scouts are “right.” Either way, our season does not hang on these two players:) If it does, then we are ready for the fat lady…
The explanation of the trade is pretty simple. Macbride pissed off Bobby like Betemit did last year and got himself traded because having players the manager likes is apparently more important than having good players.
On the plus side, Andruw didn’t strike out 3+ times.
Ron,
How did McBride piss Cox off? By sucking? Oh, what a tragedy that Cox would not like his pitcher being awful. If only Cox could have hated Keith Lockhart sooner.
On the plus, the crowd at Turner Field was really juiced about the game…oh wait, those were throngs and throngs of Red Sox fans. Crap.
In all seriousness, Buddy Carlyle gets murdered like less then 24 hours after I called him our 2nd most relieable starter. Ouch. The plus side is we don’t have to face the Red Sox again, unless we somehow back in the W.S. where their lineup will kill us one more time. Or 4.
I have to say, if we are going to lose a game, it’s actually better the Braves get waxed like that, rather then say losing a 4-2 game late. It’s a loss either way, but I find when you’ve been genuinely losing more than winning, it’s take a major beatdown like last night to wake up the slumbering General Manager from hsi sleep.
My hope is that JS had been telling himself how quietly reliable Buddy was until last night, and that the Braves absolutely must go and deal for a starting pitcher, whether it be Mark Buerhle or Matt Morris. We have no chance to stay in the race this Summer without one more reliable starting pitcher.
Also, I am 100% on the side of counting the days until interleague play is over. Please god give us some mediocre NL lineups soon.
Oscar Villarreal for starter
Someone in a comment above mentioned that Frenchy, Huddy, Andruw, and a few others need to step up. Although I agree completely with his thoughts, I really feel like singling out Andruw Jones. 10 years in the major leagues and in the year he wants to be paid like an elite baseball player, with not to mention, Scott I’m going F the greatest game on earth Boras, as his agent, he now drops his average down to the Mendoza line.
Statistics would say that if you swing so poorly that you fall half over and swing and miss at every curveball thrown at your for 10 years, you should probably re-evaluate your approach to the plate. But no, he’s going to pretend that everything is okay and his numbers will pan out. I have one word that he needs to realize – CONSISTENCY. That means you help the team a little either every game or every 2 games. It’s not – you carry the team on your back when you feel like it, although even if he felt like it right now, he couldn’t hit a curve ball.
The problem with baseball is that players’ salaries are over-inflated based off of one good season or sometimes, simply speculation. A player should be compensated on his actual worth, which should be gaged over a period of time. However, if you have a crap season like Andruw, you need to consider that more than if he had a good season.
I like my baseball players like I like my investment portfolio – either don’t break my heart or just stay above average!
Go Braves
AlexR, I too am patiently waiting for this gauntlet to be over, but I can’t help but remember all the times this team has been outplayed by the Natspos and the Marlins all year.
JoshQ,
Until recently Atlanta has handled the “good” teams far better than the lesser ones. Yes, they have been humiliated the last month or so. It really doesn’t matter anymore who the opposing team puts on the mound or even how many years the pitcher has under their belt. Our lineup has been making most of them look like Cy Young.
Smitty, I suggest it’s time for you to suit up and be the 5th starter. Really, could you do any worse?
AlexR, That my point exactly. We get Wash and Flor after the Tigers and I’m not all that excited about it right now. To me the team just seems to be going through the motions. Aside from the a couple hustle plays I saw, (Diaz smashing into the wall and Thor stretching a single into a double in game 1) the team as a whole has just been showing up and clocking in.
Agree with Alex that I can understand why Bobby would want to get rid of McBride. He is sending a message. Last year, McBride couldn’t finish with an 11-run lead in San Diego. This year, he comes in with a six run lead and is throwing pitches to the backstop. Bobby is fed up and I don’t blame him. Trade one mediocrity for another but this is sort of addition by subtraction. I mean, it’s not as if McBride has been lights out.
However, Alex, I think it is sacrilegious to even mention the World Series and the Braves in the same sentence. If the Braves were somehow to stumble in, it would make a mockery of the Series. They might be the worse team ever to make the series. I thought the same thing about the Cardinals last year even if they did win.
Maybe it’s time to face the possibility that the Braves just aren’t very good. Except for the first week and the series against the Mets, they aren’t even a .500 team. There are holes throughout the rotation and the batting order. Chipper apparently “tweaked” his groin; he will probably be out for six weeks or something. I don’t care that the Braves are still in contention. Getting in the playoffs with 82 or 83 wins holds no attraction for me. However, if you look at the numbers (ERA, runs per game), the Braves are the 8th or 9th best team in the NL and have been outscored. I’m afraid this isn’t a slump, it’s a reflection of what the team is. If the best players suck, it doesn’t matter what kind of tinkering the GM or manager does, short of bringing in a Albert Pujols and Roy Halladay. As bad as Andruw has been, I find Franceour even more maddening because of how everyone swoons over him. He has good baseball “face” and looks really good striking out or popping up. The Braves have become largely a group of clean-cut south Georgia boys. Maybe the team should not make growing up a Braves fan be the prerequisite for drafting a player.
Having said that, I think it’s unfair to say they aren’t trying. Teams always look flat when they aren’t hitting. If you don’t get hits, it’s hard to hustle much. It’s like Pete Orr–all the hustle in the world won’t make up for a lack of talent. This team’s problem is not lack of hustle, it’s lack of performance. It is primarily a young team; with Andruw struggling and Chipper out so much, there is a lot of pressure on kids in the early 20s to carry the team and, obviously, they aren’t capable of doing that. Couple that with a lousy rotation, it’s not big surprise the Braves are struggling.
And yes, I think we can officially say the NL is now a 4-A league. The difference between the Red Sox, Indians, Tigers, Twins, and the NL teams is embarrasingly large.
I wouldn’t view Bobby as a villain on the McBride trade. I guess Bobby is just from the old school, where you want a reliever to come into a game with a big lead and NOT WALK EVERYONE. For crying out loud, ya’ll act like McBride was a key asset to the team. Basically, he couldnt get the ball across the plate early in the count, then served it up or walked guys. I dont know if that pisses bobby off, but it sure pisses me off. Why keep paying for McBride’s air-fare to and from Richmond, why not mix it up and try a new guy.
Ledezma has low-mid 90’s heat, which from a lefty isnt that bad of a starting point. Also, he’s been a starter much of his career, so he may can stretch into that role or at least keep the Vulcher’s arm from falling off when our starters get rocked every other day. I liked the trade and after hearing Bobby’s comments last night that the scout’s were really high on the guy, makes me think we might have stolen one.
If you want to complain about something, lets start rehashing all of the Andruw trade rumors from last year that flew around before the deadline. That will be enough to make you sick.
I completely agree that whatever happens with the Braves the rest of the season, we are mediocre. This team isn’t even close to comparable of the Mid 90’s teams still banking on Ted’s $. I miss having an owner.
Having said that, the Cardinals winning the W.S. last year is exactly why a tweak here or there could get us to “back in” to the W.S. I mean, I am a Braves fan but I don’t care how we get there, if we deserve it, or what. No one in the NL deserves it, let’s be honest. Our league sucks, plain and simple. Even the vaunted Mets have huge pot holes.
But getting there gives you a shot–and look at the Cardinals. No one in their right mind could say the Cardinals are or were a better team then Detroit. The Tigers are loaded, though even more loaded pitching-wise last year (and more loaded offensively this year by adding Sheff).
But the Cardinals snuck in, got hot and stole the series at the right time. If the Braves win 84 games, steal the W.C. and sneak into the World Series, there’s a great chance our team gets thrashed by the A.L. Rep (likely Boston), but if we stole the W.S., are any of us going to complain?
Bottomline is I have given up on Andruw giving this team anything. But Mac and I talked yesterday and we agree, that another starting pitcher and another veteran or two (and deals with the Giants or White Sox could get this done) would give us a CHANCE.
You can liken the NL to the Eastern Conference in the NBA…most years, a powerful Western Conference team (like my Spurs this year, for example) will thrash the East representative.
But just even getting there, like the Heat in 2006, gives you a chance you can seize. I bet the city of Cleveland was at least thrilled they got to the big dance, even if 6 Western teams (at worst) were clearly better then the Cavs.
Doubledawg-
Very well said on the McBride trade.
God knows I have been critical as much as anyone on Cox, (and Mac and I aregued big time about this trade yesterday), but my goodness, McBride stunk and walked everyone. Why the hell would we criticize Bobby for having a problem with a guy sucking? Thank goodness Bobby has a problem with that.
Again, I liken the McBride/Ledezma trade to one where a “change of scenery” could greatly benefit both teams. What if both pitchers ultimately fo better in new surroundings? Then it’s a win-win for the Tigers and the Braves. Who’d complain with that?
I don’t at all see Mac’s argument about McBride being better then Ledezma. I agree abotu Ledezma’s heat and let’s also keep in mind this guy has always pitched in the AL…how do we know he’s not going to suddenly lick his chops and pitch much better against these weaker NL lineups? Just because McBride couldn’t do it, doesn’t mean Ledezma won’t.
And Mac also was vehemently against bringing Willie Harris onto the team. yes, Harris’ career performance wasn’t great, prior to coming to Atlanta. But then again, he was a lifelong Bravos fan who’s so psyched to be in Atlanta, he’s playing his a– off and has given this team a major lift, in many ways. And he’s a guy (like Thorman or Orr but not like Andruw) who also hustles his tail off. Give me 26 Willie Harris types any day.
The bottomline is I am not of the belief that everything is just about peripheral or past numbers. Sure, you can look at guys like Jorge Sosa or Horacio Ramirez and know that whatever bouts of greatness they had, may not last, but why question if they are doing something great for a period of time…let them keep going until that ability vanishes.
Alex,
I certainly wouldn’t not root for the Braves if they made it, but as a baseball fan–not just a Braves fan–it bothers me that a team like the Cardinals can win the World Series with 83 wins. I’m not that much of a purist, but rewarding a team for sucking all year and getting hot at the right time just seems wrong. That’s why I didn’t like the NC States and teams like that in the NCAA that have mediocre regular seasons and then get hot in the tournament. The one good thing about the BCS is that you have to have a very good regular season to be in there. I think the regular season should mean something. And the Braves have suffered over the years when they clearly had superior teams and lost to teams that got hot or had a hot pitcher.
My solution would be to scrap the three divisions, go to two 8-team divisions with two wild cards. Division championships don’t mean much anyway, so just reward the teams with the best record. I don’t have problems with wild card teams winning because, in a lot of cases, they have better records than the division champions. (If you really wanted to be pure, you would set up a single 16 team league and let the top four teams make it, but that isn’t realistic.) If a team isn’t good enough to be one of the top two teams in an 8-team division, they shouldn’t be in the playoffs.
What I would freaking scrap already is Interleague Play. yes, I know the Braves USED to have a good record, but even if the Braves were 20-0 this season against the A.L., it’s still inherently and patently unfair when the Braves get 6 games with the Red Sox, and the Phillies get those same 6 games with the Orioles and Devil Rays.
On the littany of reasons I despise and hate with the passion of a 1,000 suns Bud Selig, this is just another reason.
Personally, I would scrap interleague alltogether…it was fun for a while. But even if you want to keep it, you can’t look at the Marlins and Phillies schedule, next to the Braves and mets schedule and call that remotely fair. It’s disgusting. If the Marlins and Phils end up a few games ahead of the Braves and Mets, how can you not point to these disparity of games? Chipper is 100% right. Bud at least needs to fix this and make the match-ups fair.
And I don’t want to hear “well, in a few years, it will balance out and the D-Rays and Orioles will suddenly be dominant.” Uh NO. Even if the Orioles or D-Rays, by sheer luck, back into a Playoff spot, it will be once in the next 20 years. The Yanks and Sawx will always outspend everyone by leaps and bounds and even in down, non playoff years, will win 85 games. It’s a larger Baseball issue but to make it unfair on the Braves, just because Baseball’s system is completely f—ed.
Regarding the BCS comparison…don’t use that argument with me Marc because I would like to take a torch to the BCS, personally. I am a hardcore and vehement advocate of an 8 team BCS tournament and we don’t all need to start getting into this semantics argument. I hate the BCS so comparing Baseball to the BCS only makes me more fearful.
Hey, Alex, no offense, but would you mind calling a few Mets pitchers “reliable starters”? 🙂
AAR-
DONE!
Jorge Sosa, John Maine, Oliver Perez…you are all very reliable…very reliable…very reliable.
Who should I (hopefully) jinx next?
Hey Phillies, you guys are awesome and certainly WON’T go on a 10 game losing streak now. Oh no…:-)
I think we have to try Oscar as a starter again, our #3-5 starters are too inconsistent. I still think we should have tried getting Maroth from Detroit
Can we get off the Oscar thing? How desperate is our situation when we feel we have try Oscar again? He’s not very good.
i really don’t think the vulture needs to start. granted he’s no worse than some of the guys we’ve used but why tax the bullpen more by putting him into the rotation and then deal with the possibility that he only goes 3 or 4 innings.
i really think that if we could pick up a true #3 starter we could make a real go of it. july was built for us.
also, it was great seeing the hustle of diaz and harris last night, great plays even though the game was already on ice.
oh and have i mentioned i loath the the red sox and their nation of bandwagon fans. they remind me of notre dame fans that make the mistake of talking shit in bars during or after games with a SEC team. i never grow tired of seeing them get their asses kicked then arrested.
Shit, they can’t hit my 65mph fastball.
then you get’em with your 45 mph change-up. you’ve got all the tools.
Andruw Jones can’t hit my underhand curve.
andruw couldn’t hit the ball off a tee
not to question your lights out stuff smitty
i like the braves’ chances against the gambler on friday, davies will be lights out and chuckie will get the braves first complete game to ice the sweep.