ESPN – Braves vs. Indians Box Score, June 17 2007 – MLB
I don’t blame Kyle Davies. He’s not a good pitcher, but he had a nice beginning to his start, four innings of shutout ball. But the offense looked particularly hapless, and he had to pitch perfectly. He allowed the first two to reach in the fifth, but almost got out of it; a line single scored the first run. He didn’t get out of the sixth, in large part due to an awful play at first base by Thorman, who misplayed what should have been out one, allowing two runs to score and the batter to reach second. By the end of the inning it was 5-0.
The Braves finally got something going in the eighth. Thorman hit a solo homer, Escobar and KJ walked, and Harris doubled in Escobar. But Renteria and the Joneses couldn’t get anyone home. In the ninth, Francoeur and Thorman singled with one out, but Escobar grounded out and Johnson flew out to end it.
Once again, the Braves outhit their opponents in a loss, 8-6. This is frustrating. Andruw looks horrible and McCann doesn’t look a whole lot better… Chipper singled in the first, his 2000th career hit. He added 2001 with a leadoff double later but was, of course, stranded.
I guess Elvis Costello had better go.
Taking 2/3 from the Indians at the Jake isn’t too shabby.
Davies was pretty capable today. Bad defense, good defense by the Indians (great catch on Jones’ liner in the 8th) and untimely hitting…
I’ve been concerned about whether the good Davies or bad Davies shows up. I should be concerned about the good Davies and bad Davies showing up in the same game (this has happened 2 starts in a row).
I have a theory about being a major league ready pitcher. To me it’s not about having a few good or even dominating starts – it’s about being able to keep your team in the game when either you don’t have your best stuff or you have bad breaks. If either of those two things happen, Davies seems to get blown out. On the other hand, Carlyle has worked through some of those issues (I know, it’s a small sample size). On the other extreme (and hopefully so) is Smoltz. He has a way of keeping the team in the game if 90% of his pitches aren’t working the way they’re supposed to.
I’m ready to send Davies to AAA for some more work. He may turn out to be a very good major league pitcher, but I just don’t think he’s able to handle adversity well enough at this point.
Well, I guess let’s see if we can stay afloat for another week against 2 of the better teams in baseball.
And let’s go Chien-Ming Wang.
Thorman’s is really starting to disturb me… the Braves have a black hole at 1st base – not only offensively, but also defensively. That makes two horrible, crucial plays at 1st base the past few games. Davies isn’t the kind of pitcher to pick up spotty play behind him. This is just bad baseball right now, even after taking two of three in Cleveland.
Any good starting pitchers on the farm? What about Matt Harrison? Is he MLB ready? Starting pitching frustrates me more than the fielding…neither Escobar nor Thorman have even half a season of MLB under their belts. I believe both will get better defensively. Davies has had his chance…like the previous poster stated, time to go back to AAA. Maybe Boyer will be the answer.
Tiger loses a heartbreaker & the Braves were never in it. What a rough day in sports.
Tiger’s won enough. No reason to feel sorry for that guy. At least Wang is doing a number on the Mets so far.
Well hey, the Braves have won a lot too. Should we stop rooting?
Rob,
We’re Braves fans, so we root.
Most people absolutely detest the Braves & the main reason is the team’s recent success.
But, I’m not really a golf fan. I watch the last few holes of the last round of the majors and that’s about it. The only thing that intrigues me is the level of pressure these guys endure. Can’t blame your shortstop, can’t blame the ump, no wide receiver dropped your perfect pass. It’s all on you.
I realize how positively otherworldly Tiger is (and how bad-ass his nerves are), but Michael Jordan was the same way—and I didn’t root for him either.
I’m not really a golf fan either, but a person’s or team’s success shouldn’t dictate whether or not you like the person or root for them, in my opinion. Of course, sometimes that sneaks into the equation (Yankees), but more often than not, if the team or player/person is likeable, I usually don’t care how much success he’s had. That’s just me, though.
I sure hate the Yanks, but I hope they can hold on to this five run lead over the Mets.
In addition to Tiger and the Braves losing, I forgot to mention Bonds also inched closer. Is it Monday yet?
I have never been an Andruw basher, but I can’t believe more people aren’t mad at him. He is not hitting well enough right now to earn a AA roster spot. I think he’s hit about .150 for June. Three strikeouts today and two were in very critical scoring situations.
I’m tired of this garbage about moving him down in the order. Let his butt ride the pine for a few days. Whatever they’ve been doing with him isn’t working and I don’t see any other solution. At this point, I’d much rather have Harris and Diaz in the same lineup for a few days than to put up with 4 to 6 more strikeouts by Andruw during that same period. Enough is enough!
I’m going very tired of Andruw too. What sucks is that I don’t think he’s a good hitter with a bad stretch. I seriously don’t think he’s a good hitter period, so this right now isn’t that much of a shock. I think he’s got a bad swing and a bad approach and he’s proving that he’s not worth what Boras is saying he deserves. If he thinks he’s going to get Vernon Wells money, he better hit .400 for the rest of the year and pump out 40 more bombs.
The only problem is that I don’t think anyone will make up his defensive difference with their offensive upgrade. I don’t think Harris will.
I know Jones makes a big difference defensively, but there may be 2 to 3 plays per game (and sometimes 0) at most that he makes that Harris wouldn’t make. Of those plays Andruw makes that Harris can’t, I would guess about 3 to 4 per week would save runs. On the other hand, going 0 for June with RISP has cost us many more runs. Obviously, none of this is scientific, but my point is, Andruw would have to be able to play centerfield and shortstop at the same time to make up for a .150 BA.
Rob,
Andruw has a career OPS+ of 116 (including 133 & 129 marks the last two seasons) and 353 HRs (including 92 the last two seasons). Saying he’s not a good hitter is really dumb.
I seriously don’t think he’s a good hitter period, so this right now isn’t that much of a shock.
Now that’s funny. I’ve got ten seasons worth of data that says your wrong. Wow.
You owe me a coke, Robert.
Joe Simpson has really been hard on AJ the last few broadcasts. Saying things like, is it going to take him hitting .170 to change his approach. And talking about how stubborn he is being, calling Chipper a “smart” hitter in contrast to AJ. Pretty brutal stuff at times.
I don’t know what can be done at this point if he isn’t willing to help himself.
Whoever ends up with Andruw next season might have a little bit of a bargain on their hands, if he stays on the pace he’s on. He’ll likely rebound toward his career numbers. I wonder if his back’s bothering him, or something.
He has above-average power. THAT’S IT. He’s a career .264 BA hitter. Now, he’s a GREAT mistake-pitch power hitter, but overall, he’s not a good hitter. Good pitching gets Andruw out with outside breaking pitches every time. A good hitter makes adjustments; Andruw just swings harder. His last five years his BA’s have been .262, .263, .277, .264, .251. His strike-out to walk ratio? 82/127, 64/112, 71/147, 53/125, 83/135. He’s not a good hitter.
Listen to these active players who have a higher career OPS (keeping in mind some of these players have already gone through their decline phase and Andruw’s in his prime): Paul Konerko, Cliff Floyd, Geoff Jenkins (!), Luis Gonzalez, Jorge Posada, Shawn Green, John Olerud, Bernie Williams. Who’s right behind him? Matt Stairs and Pat Burrell. 10 points down: Richard Hidalgo. People compare Andruw to some of the best hitters in the league, and it’s just not so.
I think we’ve all griped about Andruw till we’ve been blue in the face. About the only thing that keeps me from totally being ill about his performance this year is his defense….but he needs to start hitting. The only positive out of his craptastic season so far is that we may be able to sign him a little cheaper than if he had an average year…
Read Jeremy’s post again. If you want to say he’s not an elite hitter, fine. Great hitter, ok. But saying he’s not a good hitter makes you sound like a fool.
Rob, you being serious?
Andruw is a CF for chrissakes! comparing him with first basemen and no-defence OFs is ludicrous. As for his 10 yr run, why don’t you post his OBP instead of his average? His K/BB ratio in the past is irrelevant, as we already have his production to look at.
Just as an example, check out Manny Ramirez circa 99-01 and Miguel Cabrera the past 2 years. Are you saying they are bad hitters based on their K/BB ratio?
Whats your definition of a good hitter? What you think is the ideal approach is irrelevant. At the end of the day, the numbers he puts up is all that matters.
Those guys on your list are all good hitters, and all those listed as above Andruw have had at least one season in which they’ve been among the very best hitters in the game. If that’s the company he keeps career-wise, I think you’ve made the point that Andruw has been a good hitter. Not this year, however.
Didn’t Andruw have some shoulder problem earlier this year? With his #s being down for this long a period, I have to believe he is playing through an injury
If those players in his company are good hitters, then I suppose we have different definitions. I don’t know if I can define a “good” hitter definitively, but Matt Stairs is not a good hitter. If you look at Luis Gonzalez’s whole career, I wouldn’t say he’s a “good” hitter either. Richard Hidalgo? No. Pat Burrell? No. Jorge Posado? For a catcher, yeah, for another position, no. Because Andruw plays center, his value as a hitter increases, but not nearly as much if he was a shortstop, second baseman, or catcher. At the same time, valuing a hitter and his ability to hit doesn’t really have anything to do with his position, so the list including no-defense OFs and first basemens really doesn’t matter.
Why not post his BA? Just because he gets walked more because of his place in the order doesn’t make him any better of a hitter. While his OBP is strong, his K/BB ratio IS RELEVANT because it shows how his walk totals (which dictate his OBP) compare to how many times he’s struck out. So, YES, it is relevant for this discussion. Manny Ramirez’s 99-01 and Miguel Cabrera’s last two years offer nothing to this discussion, however, because it’s not his K/BB ratio that definitively makes me believe he’s not a very good hitter.
The players on my list don’t match Andruw’s hitting perception. Only some of those guys were middle-of-the-order hitters for 8-9 seasons.
I wish it was as simple as Andruw being hurt, but I’ve seen nothing in his swing or his running that suggests an injury. He’s just terrible right now. I kind of like Joe Simpson being hard on Andruw – he deserves it. AJ needs to concede at some point that his approach isn’t working – he needs to take a little coaching.
I think the point that Rob is trying to make (which I agree with to some extent) is that hitters, in contrast to pitchers, can be split into the categories of classifications: Hitters and sluggers. You have your great hitters (Ted Williams) and you have your great sluggers (Adam Dunn) A player is capable of being one, both, or neither. AJ is a pretty good slugger, but as far as being a hitter, he’s probably the 8th or 9th best on this team this year (and for the record, his OBP is currently .04 points higher than Craig Wilson. The reason his OPS+ is where it’s at is because he’s a pretty good slugger, but his approach to the plate as a hitter, as has been entwined with the woes of TP and Joe Simpson, is substandard.
I’m looking forward to someone breaking my poorly-constructed argument into a twig.
Posada and Gonzalez are #41 and #42 on the active OPS leader list. Six guys on the list from Nos. 1-40 are actually no longer active. When I look at this and think about your statement that you and I have different definitions of what constitutes a “good” hitter, I’m left with the impression that your definition includes approximately one hitter per team. Which raises this question in my mind — do you like baseball? If 90% of the players who step to the plate aren’t “good”, why waste your time with such a mediocre product? I really want to know.
Rob,
you are contradicting yourself. If you don’t think Andruw is a bad hitter based on his K/BB total, why post it? And he gets walked because he hits in the middle of the order? whattt?
So someone who has a a career 117 OPS+ over 10 yrs is not a good hitter. I don’t know what your baseline is and since you haven’t revealed it, i assume it is arbitrary. you are entitled to your opinion. Just don’t be surprised if people end up scoffing at your claims if thats the best you can back it up with.
Ted Williams was slightly more than a good “hitter”.
That said, much of this “Andruw is not a good hitter” is coming from Joe Simpson’s ongoing tirade about him striking out with men on or not going the other way.
Guess who the overshift for pull happy LH batters is named after…
I think the difference in opinion here is whether someone is good is defined by what his final numbers are or what his approach is. Personally I don’t care if you K 150 times as long as your final production is good.
Bill K., how about we divide hitters up into the categories of bums who take up too much of the payroll, and guys who who actually earn their paychecks. This immature classification tells us nothing, but makes the process easier, I guess.
Win shares plus salary would be interesting to see.
I think Simpson is more concerned that AJ is refusing to change his approach. I forgot the best one today…
(paraphrasing)
Pete?- I saw Scott Boras around earlier.
Joe – Well, that should help.
///ice cold
I’m not contradicting myself. “because it’s not his K/BB ratio that definitively makes me believe he’s not a very good hitter.” K/BB ratio isn’t the ONLY metric.
Here’s my 12:45 EST view of a good hitter: .280-.300 BA, almost as much if not more walks than hits, .370 OBP. His OPS and OPS+ doesn’t take that into consideration because I view BA as more of an indicator of a good HITTER than SLG. With that in mind, comparing to other players OPS-wise was unfair; he’s not in the top 150 in BA.
The difference in opinion isn’t based on approach vs. final production. At the end of the day, it’s his final production that matters. What I’m also saying is that his terrible BA and BB/K ratio is a product of his poor approach.
Andruw Jones: GREAT power hitter, mediocre hitter.
Oh, and I think Andruw Jones has been walked more because of his place in the order. Here’s why:
He’s always hit clean-up. He’s had Chipper hitting in front of him, and not much else behind him. Besides Galarraga, at 12:54 EST no one else is coming to mind that has given a pitcher reason enough to go right after him. Thus, more walks.
That point I’m not willing to die on a hill over, though.
It’s amazing to me how anyone can think Andruw Jones isn’t a great hitter, especially after witnessing the equally ludicrous support for the very same guy for MVP a couple years ago. He isn’t one of the top five or ten hitters in the game, but for crying out loud, Rob, you admit he’s in the top 40 hitters currently playing major league baseball, which means he’s somewhere around the top 10% of hitters in the game. In what whacky world is that not “good?”
Rob, 20 pts of average over a season is just abt 10 bloops. So you saying Lo Duca is a good hitter but Andruw is not?
I think we’re basically having the Stark argument, again.
Career OPS+ of guy Rob Cope doesn’t think are good hitters:
Paul Konerko- 116
Cliff Floyd- 120
Geoff Jenkins- 118
Luis Gonzalez- 121
Jorge Posada- 123
Shawn Green- 121
John Olerud- 129
Bernie Williams- 125
Matt Stairs- 118
Pat Burrell- 116
Andruw Jones- 116
(note: OPS+ measures the OPS of a player relative to the rest of his league, with 100 being average. For reference, Chipper Jones’s is 143, Hank Aaron’s is 155, David Justice’s is 128, Jeff Blauser’s is 102, and Mark Lemke’s is 71)
So basically Rob defines guys who are above-average-but-not-All-Stars as “bad”. And as someone pointed out, we’re still comparing the Pat Burrells and Geoff “platoon me” Jenkins’ of the world to an every-day CF with above-average-to-historically-good range.
The biggest problem Andruw is having this year is the Ks. He’s still walking at about the same (pretty good) rate he has for his career; he’s just whiffing a whole helluva lot more this year for whatever reason.
Even if position in the order matters, which I doubt, how often has Andruw even hit in the fourth spot through his career?
97 was McGriff and Klesko, right?
98: Galarraga
99: Brian Jordan
00: Galarraga again, with Jordan, Joyner and Surhoff getting some at bats.
01: Chipper, Jordan, Surhoff. (Andruw hit third most of the year).
02: Sheff and Chipper
03: Chipper
04: JD Drew and Chipper
05: This was Andruw’s first year with significant clean up appearances. He started the year at 4 and ended it, with a month and a half or so of LaRoche, etc. I remember Andruw starting hitting really well in the seven hole that year after being moved down following a slow start. Since the middle of June of 05 Andruw has hit clean up, but he hardly ever did before that, so stop talking out of your ass, Rob. People can actually check to see if these things are true.
Next time you get a silly thought maybe you should check its veracity before embarrassing yourself.
I’m not here to talk about the past. I’m here to talk about the future.
I think we should leverage the Mariners’ front office situation again to trade Andruw to Seattle for Tacoma (AAA) CF Adam Jones. The Mariners must do something this year to save some jobs over there so they will bite if we can get Andruw to agree to a change of scenery.
Then we take the monetary savings from dealing Andruw to add pitchers.
I’d even be in favor of dealing Kyle Davies with Andruw to make this happen as the Mariners are starving for starting pitching as well. I’ve never been a Davies fan and I don’t ever see him becoming much, so deal him while someone somewhere may see something of value.
We will need a replacement for Andruw after this year. He is not re-signing with the Braves because he will get more money elsewhere. Period.
Adam Jones is batting .323 avg/.397 obp/.594 slg as a 21 year old in AAA!! That’s a .991 OPS with 16 HR, 16 2B and 4 3B thus far.
Then take the money saved from dealing Andruw ($13.5 mil) to trade for Mark Buerhle ($9.5 mil) and, I don’t know, Steve Trachsel ($3.1 mil).
The White Sox and Orioles will be sellers. Buerhle will be a free agent after this season so he won’t cost a ton of prospects. Trachsel has a one year deal and should be readily available, but I’d take him over our current #4 or #5 starter options any day.
How about not pinch-hitting in the 9th inning.
Thorman singles to bring the tying run to the plate… Escobar due up vs. a right-hander.
An ideal time to pinch-hit… someone with power and a chance to tie the game?
Saltalamacchia please?? Even Diaz??
That gives us a new rotation of:
John Smoltz
Mark Buerhle
Tim Hudson
Chuck James
Steve Trachsel
A Smoltz-Buerhle-Hudson playoff rotation is pretty solid, especially considering what’s available and it keeps Buerhle away from the Mets.
Aww hell, it’s Buehrle. H before the R, of course.
An outfield of Diaz (left), Harris (center) and Francoeur (right) works for me.
Right now I can’t think of anyone of this team I’d rather not see in a late-and-close game than Andruw Jones. Even Woodward inspires more confidence.
I have long resisted jumping on the bash Andruw bandwagon for a number of reasons–chiefly his production. However, aside from the statistical battle in this thread(I think tha Andruw has been a ‘great slugger’ and an adequate hitter)the thing which has really begun to bother me is his indifference to ‘the study of hitting’–and its consequences.
Between 1996 and 2006 Andruw could afford to take a casual approach to hitting. He was only going to get stronger and then he was at the peak of his career. Those years have come and gone: my guess is that Andruw will begin the process of physical decline (which can sometimes be sudden and dramatic) and that need not mean a loss of productivity. There are many players who became even more productive as they aged–largely because they worked their buts off to improve and adjust.
Andruw’s attitude seems to be: `Oh, I will get hot next month and then put up good numbers’. Yes–during his peak years, but now?
I am afraid that we have a player who is mentally lazy (possibly because for so long so much was nearly effortless) and needs to learn how to study, take notes and apply himself to the art of wise aging.
At this point, I am just glad that we don’t have him inked for 7-8 years….
I have a lot of trouble getting on the trade for Trachsel bandwagon. He usually gives up a LOT of homers and he is one of the slowest workers I’ve ever seen. I think this contributes to poor defense behind him, games that last 30 to 45 minutes longer, and general boredom. I’m not saying that Trachsel is worse than what we have now, but I think we can do better.
“The biggest problem Andruw is having this year is the Ks ….. he’s just whiffing a whole helluva lot more this year for whatever reason.”
This is the problem and the REAL concerning thing to me is apparently Andruw is not willing to do anything to solve this problem. Reading between the lines from comments made by TP, Joe Simpson and others close to the Braves it is apparent Andruw is just unwilling to change anything or listen to anyone about possible ways to fix his strikeout problem (and I do believe his strikeouts are the biggest problem right now for him). I have to admit I found myself more agreeing than not with Joe Simpson’s comment about Andruw’s batting average having to drop to 170 before he does something to fix himself.
I’m a big fan of Andruw and I really hope someone somehow convinces Andruw to do something to fix his K rate.
I hate Trachsel. In watching him for the Mets the past few years I was always SHOCKED he could keep a job. He just looked so awful out there.
And if the Braves trot Willie Harris out there as starting CF next year I might throw up. How quickly some people forget the past during a hot streak. I know when the Braves signed him to a minor league deal this spring I threw up a little in my mouth (don’t worry I swallowed it).
Andruw is playing through an injury, inabilitytohitcurveball-nucleousis
I threw Trachsel out there as an option, but I’m as surprised as you that he’s not getting lit nightly (or every 5 nights or so, rather) in the American League.
However, he’s more the type of pitcher we could target. That is to say a pitcher with a relatively inexpensive contract, no long term commitment and currently pitching for a seller (not as many of those as you’d think).
Figure as a 5th starter that Trachsel would give us a chance to win 2 out of 3 games pitched. He wouldn’t be in the postseason rotation, but he could help us get there.
But if we could just get one of our internal options to work out, be it a pitcher currently on the Major League roster or one of our minor leaguers, we’d have no need to even trade for a retread like Trachsel.
We need an innings eater, someone who can go 6+ and not give up more than 4 ER a start…thats Trachsel….on the days that Smoltz and Huddie arent pitching, we seriously tax our bullpen, leaving some guys unavailable the next day, when they could be out there holding a lead, or keeping it close. At this point, I’d take Len Barker back and let him try it every 5th day….
No thanks on Trachsel.
I have no problem with getting Steve Trachsel–but I would hope he’s not pitching on the nights I head to the ballpark. He’s slower than a 15-year old waking up for school.
Oh, and Andruw’s 10 and 5 yadda yadda pretty much negates most trades. I’m almost positive he’d veto a trade to Seattle. He’ll be very very hard to move at the deadline.
Sorry to break the Andruw bashing chain, but reports are that Perlozzo is out as mgr. at Baltimore and that they are going to hire Girardi – any chance that Leo comes back to us midseason?
not unless we DL McDowell with “tired ass” syndrome
CJ, I heard the Girardi rumor too on ESPN this morning. it’s gotta be tough to see Leo coming back though doesn’t it? I mean, I don’t think he burned any bridges here but the Braves don’t really have a history (at least recently) of firing coaches mid-season… do we?
Andruw hasn’t willed himself to an increasing strikeout rate. for whatever reason, he is just not comfortable at the plate right now.
Saying Strikeouts are the problem is slightly ingenuous. Strikeouts are the result of the problems he has
I’m not the biggest AJ fan in the world, but two things strike me as really unfair: (1) saying he is not a “good” hitter; and (2) questioning his attitude.
First, it’s obvious he is a good, but not great hitter. He is clearly not an elite hitter and, IMO, no where close to Chipper as an overall hitter. But to say he isn’t a good hitter is an overstatement. Matt Stairs is a good hitter although obviously not a great player. Obviously, he isn’t good right now but you can’t dismiss the home runs. But he is certainly not in the category of a Pujols, Ramirez, etc. I have always felt that I would rather have Andruw hitting fifth or sixth, where is inconsistency would be less of a problem than hitting cleanup. To me, Andruw is somewhat akin to Brooks Robinson (albeit with a lot more power)–a phenomenally good defensive player and a moderately good hitter. Robinson never hit cleanup because he always had better hitters in front of him.
Second, we don’t know these guys and we don’t know what their attitude is. All we have to go off of is what the media writes and their demeanor on the field. Andruw doesn’t throw tantrums when he strikes out so we say he doesn’t care. That’s completely unfair. And to say he doesn’t take coaching–again, there is no way for an outsider to judge. Maybe he is trying like hell to adjust and just can’t. It’s easy to sit in the peanut gallery and say Andruw should do this and that–it’s another thing to actually have to do it. Andruw obviously has significant limitations as a hitter, which is why he isn’t Albert Pujols. But to say his attitude is bad–maybe it it, but no outsider can really know that. Manny Ramirez probably has a bad attitude too, but no one gives a damn as long as he hits .320. Frankly, if Bobby Cox thought Andruw really had a bad attitude, I think he would have gotten rid of him a long time ago, great defense or no.
As for Davies, I actually like him the more I see. He clearly has superior talent and can be dominant. But he is learning at the major league level for a team that is supposed to be a contender and with a legacy of a group of Hall of Fame pitchers. It’s like the guys that tried to replace Mickey Mantle in center for the Yankees. Part of learning to be a pitcher is learning “damage control” as Don Sutton used to say and how to win without your best stuff. Smoltz can do that and, of course, Glavine and Maddux could in their peak years. But I bet they couldn’t do it when they first came up. Sending Davies to Richmond isn’t going to help at this point because he has already shown he can get minor league hitters out. But scoring some runs early so that he doesn’t have to pitch with pressure would certainly help. To think you are going to bring up someone else from the minors that would step right in and be a big improvement I think is fantasy.
Leo is not coming back. That horse has left the barn. He chose to leave and I doubt Bobby will dump McDowell to go chase after Leo. Plus, the O’s will still owe Leo big bucks–if I were him, I would make Angelos fire him and go fishing the rest of the year.
would anyone take a 3-3 record at home over the next 6 games.
Schilling, Beckett, and Taveras this series
marc,
i agree. leo kicks it the rest of the season unless someone throws a sick ammount of cash at him.
Skip mentioned rumors yesterday that the Orioles may buy out Leo’s contract because they’re unhappy with him. Any chance he comes back? Any? Please Schuerholz?
I think people who say Andruw isn’t trying to fix this or take to coaching are blind. Andruw definitely shifted from his relatively new wide stance back to the old upright stance at some point in May. Granted, it didn’t work, but if he looks different up there then by God, he’s trying/being coached.
Steve Trachsel is my least-favorite pitcher of all time.
I think it’s pretty clear that Leo wouldn’t be coming back after some of the things that were said after he left by some of the pitchers and Schuerholz.
Hanging sliders fade
Curve balls murder our Andruw
Boras lurks outside
I mean, doesn’t Boras sound like the name of an evil Klingon family? “The house of Boras knows no honor,” Worf growled.
I’ll accapt taking 2 of 3 from the tribe in cleveland any weekend. Shoot, as long as we are hanging in there within a game or two of the Mutts, we are going to be in good shape because eventually they are going to have to play us… and we OWN them.
Re: Andruw
I don’t pretend to know the answers. I just hope he begins to contribute offensively, and soon. He looks like he’s swinging a Whiffle Ball bat up there. He’s all over the place.
Re: Trachsel
I don’t know what kind of money we can free up, but he wouldn’t be an awful 3/4 option. Truthfully, though, he’s one of my very least favorite players because he takes forever to pitch. I’ve actually decided NOT to go to a Mets game because he was pitching.
I’d been to too many games where even Mets fans were screaming at him: “T’row the freakin’ bawl already!” He’s brutal to watch.
What players do you guys see us losing after this year. Keep in mind we have to cut cost because Huddy goes from 6-13mil and Smoltz from 8-14 mil next year. Who will we lose
Renteria
Hudson
Druw
Wickman
Soriano says he wants to be a starter or closer next year so something has to give
Andruw Jones, Bob Wickman and maybe Edgar Renteria (if Lillibridge is ready).
If Hudson has a good year, there is no way Schuerholz lets him go with his new focus on pitching.
Agree, no way we can afford to lose Hudson unless we can trade him for young, major league ready pitching talent. Andruw is gone, no doubt in my mind. I would actually like to see Edgar stay another year, Lillibridge seems far from ready this year.
There is no way to trade Andruw now, and there is no way the Braves will be able to sign him after this year, eventhough his skills are in decline, somone will still pony up a huge offer. The only way I could see them trading Renteria is if they hold on to Escobar, and believe that he is a capable replacement. Also, it wouldn’t be out of the question to bring Wicky back, but I don’t see why they would, when they can use the freed up salary to make a run at starter or two. Especially if Buehrle is available.
What if Pendleton became the Baltimore manager, Roger McDowell was fired, Leo was brought back, and the Braves found a new hitting coach who Andruw and Thorman will actually listen to? A fan can dream….
Andruw will listen to nobody, but I want Leo back!!!
I think Andruw and Wickman will be gone. Soriano will be the closer next season and the bullpen will be weak until Gonzo comes back…and who knows how effective he will be coming back from injury…
Barry Bonds a Brave?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/06/could_bonds_be_.html
Um… no. Even for MLBmakethingsup that’s a stretch.
Though actually they talk about Matt Morris to the Braves, not Bonds. That would make a lot of sense. Or bringing Klesko back on a “he can’t be any worse than Thorman” basis. Ryan’s power has pretty much disappeared but he’ll at least get on base.
Not to defend MLBrumors but I think they were refering to Matt Morris getting traded to the Braves if San Fran has a fire sale of their geriatric roster and not Barry Bonds.
Acosta for Paronto!! He has got excellent numbers. Who knows him? What’s his story?
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Manny%2520Acosta&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=407924
#79- Even after we lose Andruw, w.out signing his replacement we havent freed up funds. Andruw is 13.5 this year and Smoltz and Hudson salaries increase a combined 13 million.
We still have to cut other to free up salary. Renteria and Wickman are the only two that can help with that, unless Hudson goes.
I really can see us losing Renteria, Jones, and Wickman next year. That really only frees up $10-12 million for us to spend. I could possibly see Renteria staying, but not the others
Journeyman reliever from who else, the DBacks
famous for the meltdown inning in ST this year, where he gave up 8 odd runs to the Astros in the bottom of the 9th
csg,
I don’t diagree, but I don’t think Renteria will go unless they think Escobar is ready to take over, assuming they don’t trade Escobar first.
I think the problem is that Andruw is actually listening to TP more as of late. His first pitch swing% is up.
Escobar is getting traded for sure. Count on it.
My mistake. It does talk about the Braves getting Morris, not Bonds. Morris makes a heck of a lot of sense, and he’s signed for 2008 too, so it wouldn’t be a two or three month rental.
What would it take? I don’t know what the Giants need or want.
Sam Perlozzo was fired today. What does that mean for Mazonne?
Oh yeah, I remember him now. Ascota is the guy who gave up eight runs without recording one out in the ninth inning of the first spring training game broadcast on SportSouth.
I would let Wickman go and make Soriano the closer or convert him to starting. Soriano has much better stuff and could be a ferocious closer. Wickman is old and while he is a more than serviceable closer, I can’t see continuing to waste Soriano as an 8th inning only guy.
Andruw might be making himself affordable. If he ends up having a bad year, I don’t think he will get Wells type of money no matter how good a centerfielder he is. I suspect his value has already dropped.
Going from Renteria to Lilibridge would be a disaster at this point. I don’t know how good Lilibridge is, but right now Edgar is the MVP of the team and I can’t see any way that Lilibridge could replace his offense. (I don’t know about defense.) Especially with Chipper reduced to a 100 game a year player, the Braves would have to get another bat if they lost Renteria, although I suspect that Renteria’s stats will return to more normal levels as he tires late in the season.
Smoltz, Hudson, Morris, Hampton, ???
would be hack of a rotation for 08
heck while we are at it, Glavine also for 08
Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Morris, Hampton
sure why not
Why not bring back Greg Maddux and have Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux? And, maybe Sid Bream. We could pretend that it’s still the 90s.
I think the jury is still out on the offseason, with the exception of Wickman, who would either retire or maybe go back to Milwaukee or one of the Chicago teams near his home. I like Bob a lot and would hate to see him go, but he is on his last hurrah it appears after a pretty good career. Besides, Soriano and Gonzalez will be the closer unless Soriano moves into the rotation.
With Andruw, I think the market will be pretty soft, or softer than everyone thought beofre the season. Ichiro and Hunter will be the most sought-after OF’s, mainly because AJ has stunk it up this year. I can see a scenario whereby the other teams low ball him, and he’ll just stay with Atlanta due to the convenience and comfort of playing here. I just don’t see the “big money” developing for him based on how poorly he has played offensively this year. As others have said, he is playing his way right back into the Braves budget. Given the choice of moving or staying for the same money, AJ would probably just stay.
Losing Renteria would be a tough pill because he is such a solid player and true professional. However, he will demand good money as well, and the Braves have prospects at his position. I think they may have a tough decision here and use what money they have to try and get a decent 3/4 starter, or hopefully better.
Bring Otis Nixon back too…..
What about the Mark Teixiera/Adam Dunn rumors?
lilibridge is not ready to step in and after watching him play some this season, i’d say he’s a bandaid at best. kind of reminds me of giles at the plate but loves to strike out. it will be hard to replace renty’s production, especially now that chipper plays less and less.
Wickman is hardly on his last leg.
Gonzalez ain’t coming back till July 2008 at the earliest, and if the Braves decide that Soriano would make a great affordable starter, why not keep Wickman? I admit I’m somewhat biased, as I really like Wickman.
It’s simple: Braves decide Soriano is a closer, than you let Wickman go. If they want Soriano to start, you keep Wickman (assuming he doesn’t retire).
Yeah, let’s get Adam Dunn and have a team contest of who can strike out the most, Dunn or Andruw Jones.
Dan,
I hope I’m misreading your why-would-we-want-Dunn? attitude. Dunn’s been about eleventy-billion times as valuable as Andruw this year. Offensively, anyway.
Stu, Chris Woodward is has been Tenity million times better that Andruw. Maybe tenity and a half!
Teixeira is hurt right now and I think is supposed to be out for a few weeks.
Let’s go, Chucky.
Let’s win, Twins.
Lotsa Met moaning up here. Beltran is the target these days. And, of course, it’s getting irrational. I heard someone say, “Bring back Xavier Nady,” as if that would solve anything.
My response: “Um, do you remember who you got for him? He’s your best pitcher.”
Their former best pitcher? In Glavine’s last 2 starts (Det, NYY): 8.1 IP, 19 H, 16 ER.
Braves & Mets are in the same boat right now: Their “good players” gotta play better. There’s no magic fix.
I’m glad the Braves didn’t ship Hudson off to the Orioles so they could free up enough salary to sign Tom Glavine. His ERA is something like 4.67 now.
The difference between Andruw and Woodward is that Andruw should be on the bench, while Woodward shouldn’t even be on the roster.
But they both stink.
FREE WILLIE HARRIS.
(how catchy is that?)
Seriously…FREE WILLIE HARRIS and let the man play Center Field. I agree with someone’s comment yesterday. Just DL Andruw for 15 days. call it a ‘roving hang nail’, I don’t care.
It’s allows Scott Boras’ little boy to save face (though most of us would know the real reason) and allows the Braves some room to actually string together more then 2 wins in a row because we will no longer have the rally killing Andruw in the middle of our lineup.
Glavine will be fine when he’s back to facing more limited NL lineups. I would still much rather have Glavine then 3/5 of our current rotation.
Ah, but Dan, you forget: Tom Glavine is a “proven veteran,” who “knows how to win.” And you just can’t put a price on that.
Also, Glavine was my favorite Brave growing up.
Yup. Glavine’s 2 bad starts (after several good ones) were against 2 of the toughest lineups in MLB.
Alex,
If we’re gonna be any good, we need Andruw to produce. He’s not getting benched. It’s not even worth discussing.
AAR…Glavine was my favorite Brave but proving how old I am getting, my “favorite Brave growing up” was Dale Murphy.
I haven’t looked back through earlier comments, but did someone here notice that Murph dissed Barry Bonds?
I didn’t think it was possible to love Murph anymore then I already do (as a lifelon Braves fan should or else you have to turn in your Braves card) but Murph not liking Bonds just makes my day!
Ok, ububba, that’s fine. Exactly how long to we wait through how many killed rallies for Andruw to produce? I am going fully GRAY at 32 years of age waiting for Andruw to PRODUCE. Geez.
Well, at least can we agree that he needs to be dropped in the order? Hit this stiff 8th if he’s going to K 4-5 times a game. I am so done with it.
I’d still take Hudson. The Braves have him signed through 2009, with an option for 2010. Glavine is likely gone at the end of this year. I believe Hudson has righted the ship.
The offseason rumor was, if you believe Ken Rosenthal, Tim Hudson for Chris Ray and Brian Roberts. If the Braves had made that trade at the November GM meetings, they probably wouldn’t have attempted to get Rafael Soriano. Kelly Johnson wouldn’t be at second base and batting leadoff. Glavine would be in and Hudson out. That trade almost certainly would have been a disaster if the Orioles hadn’t said no because they were afraid Hudson would demand to be a free agent after the 2007 season.
Demand a trade I mean.
Glavine always had some problems with AL teams (fortunately not the Cleveland Indians on October 28, 1995), and I think it’s probably even more difficult now as he gets older. He will recover.
By the way, has anyone noticed that Skip Carey talks much, much slower than he did several years ago? Did he have a stroke or something? Is it his drinking catching up to him?
Marc…I have noticed the same thing. He does sound like someone who’s had a stroke.
Also, this weekend he kept complaining about the Indian’s drum in LF ad nauseum. Has he not noticed the big drum the Braves have out in LC?
Sounding like you’ve had a stroke is still better then sounding like Chip Caray.
Yea I noticed Skip was talking much slower…however he is still way better than his son. Also when the Braves were in DC, I saw Skip and Pete leaving the booth and I notice how slow Skip walks…how old is he anyway? He moves like a man in his 80’s, but then again I guess the alcohol is catching up with him…
Y’all. Skip quit drinking about 10 years ago.
I thought Skip was in his late sixties at most but I could be wrong. I’m pretty sure he is not in his eighties.
Skip is only 66
He’s two months shy of 68, according to Wikipedia.
Count yourself lucky Alex, I’ve gone bald waiting for Andruw to produce and I’m only 32….