The kind people at Dutton have been nice enough to send me an advance copy of The Baseball Economist. (Unlike the jerks at Warner, who wouldn’t even tell me to buzz off when I asked for a review copy of Schuerholz’s book, and I was quoted in that.)
Sabermetrics is, arguably, a subdiscipline of economics. Many of its founders and practitioners have been economists by profession (Bill James studied economics as an undergrad). One of the latest and brightest of the economist/sabermetricists is our own J. C. Bradbury, who has coined the term Sabernomics for his form of the discipline.
JC has written a series of essays applying economics techniques to various issues in baseball, like which teams will be dominant in forthcoming years (sorry, I don’t really buy the Marlins, given their tendency to sell off their best players) and how to judge both hitters and pitchers. His “steroids chapter” is one of the best rational discussions I’ve seen of the issue. If you’re reading this, you’re probably familiar with most of these methods, but the value is in the assemblage and the essays accompanying the study.
It’s a good book. I’m not in 100 percent agreement with JC on everything, but life wouldn’t be much fun if we agreed on everything, would it?
Congratulations to JC! Hope it sells a million.
A nice review in, of all places, the Wall Street Journal.
I only post occasionally, but I read the posts every day. I don’t mean to offend anyone by posting this here, but there are a lot of good baseball minds reading this, so if I may…
“Forkball Appreciation Society” ID #1352 – Yahoo Fantasy Plus League Open Spots:
The current setup is not “Set in stone” yet, and I will be reviewing the points and league trade veto policies before the draft. Things will not change too much from the way it they are currently set up, but the allocations for pitching will have to be altered a bit in order to balance the system. I will be reviewing the changes needed within the next few days, and then I will not make any changes again after the draft. Al changes made will be publicly posted with ample time for all owners to alter draft strategies, if needed.
Essentially, we are starting early in order to screen the applicants and get a seasoned, civil group of guys together. There are way too many hotheads playing these games that can ruin things for an entire league. I anticipate conducting our Auto Draft sometime in the first or second week of March.
There is a $20 fee for joining the league, payable to my e-mail address (dvlaster@triad.rr.com), or mailed to my home addesss (Provided upon request).
Please e-mail me with any questions, or go ahead and reserve a spot. Thanks for reading!
From the last thread, RE: MLB.TV
I’m going to be purchasing it, but I just want to make sure i’m going to get the Braves games, it kind of defeats the purpose of paying $80-$120 if i’m not getting the games I want to see.
Wow,
Vandy ended Florida’s 17 game winning streak, 83-70…
Stu is going to be insufferable.
I plan to open the official Braves Journal league in a few days, I’ll announce it then. It gives me something to do other than write about Tyler Yates.
Mac,
Yay, can’t wait. 🙂
I plan on avoiding Stu for the next couple days on AIM. Vandy athletics doesn’t have very many achievements so I’m sure he’s loving this. At the end of the day, Florida played absolutely terrible. When you shoot 40%, turn the ball over 1,374 times, and you generally just play like crap, you’re gonna lose more often than not, even to an more or less mediocre team like Vanderbilt.
Plus:
“This is one for the ages,” Byars said. “Twenty years from now, I’ll be able to tell my little kids this. This is special. You can’t explain it.”
That’s when you know you have a great team.
Rob,
40%…you guys shot 40%…You don’t know what I would give up if UConn would shot 40%. We are currently shoot 32% overall but at one point we were shooting 14% from 2 pt FGs…if it wasn’t for Jerome Dyson’s 24 points we would be getting destroyed…
Oh and the Huskies have got to be the worst free-throw shooting team I had ever seen…
Jay10,
I purchased MLB.tv last year and loved it. The only games that I recall being unavailable were the nationally televised ESPN games. Other than that, everything was available, to my recollection.
Last year it was $15 per month or $80(i think) for the year. It may be worth it to try it for the first month before committing to the rest fo the season since the difference isn’t much and you’re uncertain about it.
I give it a big thumbs-up though! Fair warning that you may sleep less with all the non-Braves west coast games available, however.
Also, just checked and it’s $15 per month again and $90 per year (which appears to cover Spring Training through the Regular Season, with audio for the Postseason).
Blackout restictions apply, so that may knock some games out too.
In addition to the live video of the game, there is a live boxscore as well.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/subscriptions/mlbtv.jsp
Teams that shoot 40% don’t win championships. With all due respect to UConn (they have a stronger tradition than Florida), they aren’t a #1 team that lost to…. Vanderbilt. Yikes…
Thanks Cary,
Yeah, I’ll just do the first month to make sure I like it. I really appreciate it.
It’s one game, Rob. And Vandy isn’t mediocre — they’re the second-best team in the best conference in the nation.
Anyone watching the dunk contest…Dwight Howard’s sticker dunk was amazing…funny as hell too…he got robbed…
@13 – I’m a huge SEC b-ball fan and would like to think that the SEC is the best conference in the nation, but I can’t buy it. The SEC East may be the best Division in b-ball, but the West isn’t very strong. Ala, MSU, Ole Miss, and Ark are all mediocre and Auburn and LSU are below them. This is definitely a down year for the West, but hopefully they’ll prove me wrong in the tourney. I see 2 teams at most making the tourney from the West and 4 to 5 from the East.
SEC is the best conference?
hold the phone bucko
i would say that the ACC this year would beat the SEC as well as the Missouri Valley conference.
Hell, the MVC might be the best conference (Butler and S. Illinois are nasty)
ACC in a down year is better than SEC in basketball.
Godot,
Ooooooo, burn.
Vandy Rocks!! Nobody should be all that surprised–Vandy has really come on (despite the visit to Knoxville) and they are always tought at home.
Unlike a number of recent years when Vandy seemed to wear down, the Commodores may actually get stronger in March!
I am happily waiting for Stu’s posts….
It’s weird. During every other Florida game I’ve watched (even the FSU one), I never thought they was a chance they’d lose until… well, until they had lost in the two cases it did happen. But today, I commented before hand that I wasn’t so sure about this one. After that huge (emotional) comeback against Alabama at home, going on the road for a Vandy team that’s hard to get really jacked up for is tough. And lo and behold, they came out flat and never had one of those 5-10 minute stretches where they put up 20 points and shut the other guys down completely. Credit Vandy; their defense was good and they played physically. Florida also didn’t take advantage of the foul situation as much as they should have. When the other guys pick up 5 or 6 fouls before the first TV timeout, you’ve really got to make sure you get to the line more than a few times in the half. But yeah. Florida’s offense didn’t run like it usually does (some of which is, again, because of Vandy’s defense), but thems the breaks.
Anyhow, I’d just like to get back to the days when the Gators were holding everyone to like 25% from the 3-point line….
THank you Stu, thank you Vandy!
You’re right, sansho. It’s one game. It’s not going to dictate our shot at running the table against the SEC, and perhaps going deep into the Tourney. However, this is the third of a very troublesome series of games that Florida has played recently, twice against Vandy and once against Alabama. They start the first half of the game getting into a doube-digit deficit, only to have the depth (of the lack thereof) of the other team catch up with them, and Florida out-muscles them int he second half getting the ball to guys on our bench like Werner, Richard, Hodge, etc. that are good enough to probably start at just about any other school. But when the team isn’t shooting or controlling the ball, it doesn’t matter how solid your depth is… you lose. I know Billy Donovan knows this (he alluded to it during the pre-game), so it’s not that big of a deal. Just sayin….
I’ll probably buy this next week. I’m developing a book habit…not quite like Mac…but I’m getting there…
There’s a pretty good article at The Hardball Times that tries to decide who would get the HOF vote if you had to choose between Smoltz and Schilling.
Vanderbilt must not have a very good economics department. Their school doesn’t seem to understand that $25,000 is a huge price to pay for storming the court over a regular season W.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2770430
snellville,
Thanks for the link to the article in the Hardball Times. It was an excellent read.
Rob,
If it’s only one loss, why do you keep obsessing over it? I’ve never seen such insecurities or so many pre-emptive rationalizations in my life. Calm down. You don’t even go to school there, so it’s not like you’re a legitimate fan, anyway. I hear Clearwater Christian has some good volleyball players for whom you can cheer.
Remember me saying after the Gainesville game that we’d win in Nashville? Yeah, I remember, too.
Also, it should be noted that Vandy was just the better team yesterday. Florida shot poorly in large part because we played such great defense and, well, because we have the best home-court advantage in the conference. (I was fortunate enough to be in Memorial for the game, and the place was rocking.)
Finally: I told everyone that Derrick Byars is the man.
Don’t worry, everyone. This is the last I’ll say about this, barring some more un-provoked, whiny, sore loserism from Rob.
Guys COMPETING FOR SPOTS who are OUT OF OPTIONS:
Aybar, Langerhans, RHP Tyler Yates, RHP Jonathan Johnson.
Thorman’s out of options, too, not that that’s really relevant at this point.
A few key guys NOT OUT OF OPTIONS: Diaz, Kelly Johnson, Cormier.
I found that interesting. I’ve never played in a fantasy league before, though I was tempted last year. How exactly does it work?
Obsessing, Mr. Stuart? I made exactly 3 posts about it. And in fact, by word count, I’ve spoken less about it on here than you just did.
Also, let me get this straight, you’re going to tell America that unless they went to the particular college they cheer for, they’re not legitimate fans? So some UF freshman who doesn’t know Chris Leak from a pipe leak but still says “go Gators” is more of a fan than me because they had his/her major and not mine? Riiiiight. And ya know, go CCC. And yes, they’ve got a darn good volleyball team. There’s not a team I cheer for more in volleyball. But Clearwater Christian College doesn’t have a football team, so I stay with the team I’ve loved since I’m a child. Must make me an illegitimate fan…
Saying that Vanderbilt has the best home-court advantage is suspect at best. I could give you several quotes from SEC and non-SEC coaches who has said that the O-Dome is one of the toughest in the country, if not the toughest. I was 7 rows from the floor when they played Ohio State this year, and I would agree.
And yes, I do remember you saying that they’d “get them in Nashville.” You’re a prophet. Congratulations.
I’m pretty sure that Stu is right on the home court advantage. I hate that place.
I’ve just searched several different sites rating the toughest places to play in the SEC, and Vandy didn’t make the top 5 in any of them. And even in the top 5 in the country, Rupp Arena and the O-Dome were the only ones getting love in the SEC. Apparently a lot of people don’t like playing at Duke the most, though.
And yeah, that was a good article at the Hardball Times. When I was reading it, the way he was giving the stats, I thought he was going to go the other direction. I was surprised when he picked… the other person (trying not to give it away).
In other words, the places where the best teams play are the toughest places for other teams to play. Wow, big shock. Vandy is a tough place to play even when the Commodes suck.
Or could it be these teams are taken to the next level because of their great home-court advantage. I mean, you can’t quantify that, but that seems perfectly valid. I’m sure there’s a reason Florida was undefeated at home before this game…
Yeah, there is — they’re really fricking good. They aren’t losing very many road games, either. Everyone in the SEC has a significant home court advantage, but Vandy takes it to the next level.
“You don’t even go to school there, so it’s not like you’re a legitimate fan, anyway.”
Stu,
I’m sorry but that is the by far one of the dumbest statement’s I have ever seen. Going to a school has absolutely nothing to do with be a “legitimate fan”. I haven’t even been to college yet, does that mean i’m not a “legitimate fan” of the Hokies or the Huskies? Come on. Congrats to you going to Vandy and everything, but i’m assuming you were a fan before you enrolled, correct? And if you were, would that have changed if you didn’t go to Vandy? I doubt it.
I highly doubt that I will ever go to Virginia Tech or Connecticut but that won’t change whether or not i’m a fan.
Except, atleast according to the polls and reviews I read, the SEC love goes to Rupp Arena and the O’Connell Center. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure Vandy is a really tough place to play. I just consider the source who said it on here originally…
“be” should be “being”.
He probably offended most people on here with that statement, Jay. What does it take to be a Braves fan, Stu?
Jay10,
There is a bond between going to college at a particular place and being a student or alum. There are fans of a team – those generally go with ebb and flow of how good they are, coaching styles, and the like. Others are students or alumni and have a deep personal connection with the school, and perhaps the players or coaches.
Yesterday was a glory day for Vandy athletics. It’s arguably their biggest athletic accomplishment in a dozen or so years aside from a win over Georgia in football here or there. I don’t mean that in a snide way but geesh, let Stu have a little relaxation and gratification.
Under normal circumstances I would be really happy for Stu even at the expense of my team. Just like how I was happy for most of my FSU friends when they beat Florida. But the arrogant FSU fans, I’m not going to fuel their arrogance. I can’t count the number of times I heard “Ahhh Thornton torched your guys! Ahhh he’s AWESOME! AHHH!” Compare that to “every team in the SEC cheats excepts for Vandy,” and you can see why Stu gets no love.
And I still disagree about a bond increasing when you go to the school. I was a Florida fan before I went to Clearwater, I’m a Florida fan while at Clearwater, and I will be a Florida fan after I graduate from Clearwater. The intensity and fervency for my Gators will not change because of where I take my classes. And, atleast with the baseball team, I have just as much connections with the players as an average student. Most of the guys on Florida’s baseball team I’ve hung out with and played with or against. I’ve played against Cornelius Ingram, the Gators tight end (I was thisclose to tackling him in the back field when he was the quarterback of Hawthorne High School; he’s faaaaaast).
Jay10,
Didn’t mean to offend you. Rob and I have had this debate before, and I just took this opportunity to bring it up again, just to make him mad. It worked. I’m sure you’re a good fan of those schools.
Mac,
Thank you.
Wryn,
I appreciate the non-hate, but that’s hardly our biggest athletic accomplishment in the last dozen years. Our basketball team made it to the Sweet 16 with Freije, and that’s easily bigger than a regular season victory. The football team beating UT in ’05 was also much, much bigger than this, at least for Vandy fans. I just really enjoy watching Rob get so pissy about the Gators.
Take it from a UK fan… Outside of a couple games a year, Rupp Arena is only a shell of what it used to be. Granted, the talent level at UK is down and subsequently teams are far less intimidated to play them. But certain areas of the arena are full of bluehairs (the naturally aged type) and old money donors who rarely stand and cheer, and certainly don’t get loud. Rupp Arena being a tough place to play currently, is vastly over-rating it based on history.
Rob,
I couldn’t have said better myself.
Other news,
Apparently Peter Moylan impressed Bobby today…
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070218&content_id=1806313&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl
Stu, why would it make me mad? It just makes you sound like a jerk to everyone who cheers for a college that they didn’t attend.
And I do get “pissy” about my Gators. I get “pissy” when they lose. I was “pissy” when they lost to Auburn. I was pissy when they lost to Kansas and FSU. I hope I never become tolerant of losing. I hope my team doesn’t lose so much I get used to it like Vandy fans do.
Oh, and there’s an article on The Hardball Times that says Atlanta’s farm system is 25th in the majors. Not good…
Mark me down for hating to play in that Vandy gym, too. I recall several good years for the Dawgs when they drilled Vandy in Athens (I saw Vern Fleming light them up for 44 one night), then lost on a last-second shot in that barn. We never win in that place.
Personally, I’m honored that beating the Gators is such a big thing these days. Seriously, the Gators are currently the top dog in SEC men’s basketball, and it feels great. In addition to Vandy storming the court, we had KENTUCKY of all places talking about how huge it would be to beat the Gators. I mean, Kentucky is supposed to be the team to beat!
And if you tell me that Vandy has the best home court in the SEC, well, I’ll be skeptical (the O’Dome was INSANE in the second half of the ‘Bama game) but concede that you may be right. I mean, that court is seriously messed up. It doesn’t surprise me that teams would be a bit thrown by it. Heck, I’m amazed the Vandy players have been able to get used to that oddity. 🙂
Tennessee is perfect at home and has only won at LA-Lafayette on the road. They’re 3-0 at “neutral-site” Nashville (lost the “road” Nashville game), and 0-2 in New York. How’s that for a home-court advantage?
I’m pretty sure it’s an anomaly, though. Several close road losses, we should have at least a couple road wins even with our no-shows in a couple of those games.
@46
Rob,
The only reason that Atlanta’s minor league system sucks right now is because what we did to start 2005, and a whole bunch of injuries didn’t work. I think that would have made the system look better in 2006 and this year. I’m not complaining. In fact, I wonder why you’re even worried about it at all.
Actually, I think that I was the first (for whatever its worth) to say that Vanderbilt has an immense homecourt advantage. I have followed Vandy for 40 years and opposing coaches have consistently said that it is a nasty environment for their teams. Memorial Gym (Stu, I am very envious–it must have been a blast–as it was in the Clyde Lee era) was orginally designed for an orchestra and so it has unusual accoustics–in other words the it has the capacity to ‘rock’. In addition, coaches have complained about the location of the benches. Finally, the long tradition of Vanderbilt football ensures that whenever the basketball team does well, it has maximum support.
I hope that Vandy makes the NCAA, does well (not nearly as likely)and advances. I also hope the same for other SEC teams.
Clearly this was a big moment for Vanderbilt sports and should be enjoyed as such….
mraver,
I want something to be clear: I never said Florida wasn’t great. It’s absolutely a testament to the Gators that teams get so excited about beating them. They’re an incredibly talented and tough-to-play team.
That said, I’m just enjoying the victory. Beating great teams is great. And, as sansho said above, it validates the notion that we’re the clear-cut second-best team in the conference this year. And fans who pull out all the stops and excuses to rationalize a loss — Rob, for example — make such wins even more enjoyable.
Rob,
I hope my team doesn’t lose so much I get used to it like Vandy fans do.
1) Unfortunately, I’m not used to Vandy’s losing. I wish I were; it would make following the football team much easier. (Note once again that it’s only our football team that loses consistently.)
2) Florida’s not “your” team. Sorry.
I’ll say as a Bama fan that if we go into Gainesville or (in earlier years) Lexington, I figure we’ll probably lose because those teams were really good. We’re going into Nashville, I figure we’ll lose because of the gym. I swear that place is haunted.
Peter Moylan? Chad Paronto?
Free Phil Stockman!
Stu, I had written a lengthy response for you, but this conversation went beyond ridiculous to insane when you said that Florida isn’t “my” team, whatever the heck that means. Stu, you never played for Vanderbilt basketball, football, baseball, etc. so Vanderbilt is not “your” team. See, it’s ludicrous.
Sam, what’s worrying is the reality that’s bad. I know that our terrible bullpen depth the past 2 years and injuries in ’05 caused it. That and men like Dayton Moore, great scouting guys, that are gone now too. A bad farm system, regardless of the reason for it, is worrying.
Stu,
Congrats on the big win. Here’s how I break down this thread so far:
– Claiming the second-best SEC team mantle/holding it over the Gator fans. – cool.
– Ripping Rob for not being a “real” Florida fan since he goes to another school – not.
I’m surprised you’re still doing at that at #52 – since you already gave Jay a pass on similar facts, maybe you’re still just trying to make Rob mad since he makes snide comments about Vandy athletics. But, assuming you mean what you’re saying, I think you’re really off here. Plenty of people, for reasons entirely their own, choose to attend schools other than those whose athletics programs they support. (brainteaser: by Stu’s own logic, does his current enrollment at UGA Law mean he’s not really riding for the Commodores’ cause? at the least, wouldn’t it imply some sort of Dawg-affinity?)
That doesn’t make Rob and his ilk fake fans, or lesser fans – it just illustrates how “pro” Division I college football and basketball really are. Kids grow up rooting for these teams, and then they figure out where they want to go to college (if at all). Sometimes the two don’t sync. Big-time college teams are promoted much the same as pro teams, so I’m on board with anyone’s decision to hitch themselves to a wagon other than where they attend school, so long as they don’t make that decision for blatant bandwagon reasons. In the current media/marketing environment, D-I’s a lot closer to pro than high school.
The problem with your logic is that it’s hyperexclusionary – if someone can’t get in to a D-1 college or chooses to go to a smaller school for personal/academic reasons, you’d deny them the fun of watching D-1 sports from the perspective of being a particular team’s fan. Why? The current system is weird and very pro-like, as if the Braves operated a university on the side (to expand on another poster’s idea.) I think it would be silly to tell someone they weren’t a “real” Braves fan if they grew up rooting for the Braves but didn’t attend the Braves’ university for whatever personal reason.
Stu,
At the end of the day, Florida played absolutely terrible. When you shoot 40%, turn the ball over 1,374 times, and you generally just play like crap, you’re gonna lose more often than not, even to an more or less mediocre team like Vanderbilt.
That’s me right there. Here’s you:
And fans who pull out all the stops and excuses to rationalize a loss — Rob, for example —
Something’s not making sense there. Rationalizing it would be saying something about the gym, being on the road in general, “every team has an off-day,” etc., not “Florida played absolutely terrible.”
Stop putting words in my mouth, or drop the discussion.
I think Chuck made the point that I couldn’t make very well. Also, what if a young person can’t afford to go to the school they root for? No longer a fan? Poor people can’t like college sports!
I graduated from a high school 30 minutes away from Gainesville. About 40% of those who graduate from Keystone Heights High School get accepted into UF, but cannot afford to go there right out of high school, so they go to Santa Fe Community College, which, by the way, sends more people to Florida than any other high school or community college. Are those people not “legitimate” fans until they finish their AA and then go to UF? Hardly.
Now take me for instance: I have a tremendous amount of pride in Clearwater Christian College. We have a great academic program and some of our athletics are great for a school smaller than many high schools (650 on a good year). I keep up with all of their athletics and cheer for most of them, especially since I’m friends with most of the players, coaches, etc. Under your logic, that’s perfectly fine and dandy. Now here’s the problem: I don’t go to Clearwater Christian College this semester. I couldn’t afford to go there this semester, so guess where I am? The aforementioned Santa Fe Community College. So, by your logic, I can’t be a fan of the school I’m seeking a degree from (I’m not enrolled there right now!) or the school I have loved since I was 8 (we moved from Tallahassee then). Makes sense… or are you just trying to get under my skin? You’re doing an amazing job.
Chuck G,
Mostly, it’s the former. As I’ve said, I just like watching Rob do what he’s doing.
However, while I don’t actually believe that non-students or non-alumni can’t be fans of a school (sorry about the double- or triple-negative there), I firmly believe that, as Wryn alluded to above, one who hasn’t attended a school simply cannot have as great a connection to the school as those who go there. There’s just a greater bond if you’ve gone to the school; I would hope you could understand that.
Sure, the Robs of the world are better fans than first-year sorority girls who can’t name any players on their school’s team, but the Robs of the world just don’t have the same connection to Florida that one who feels just as strongly as Rob does about the Gator sports teams and actually attends or has attended the university can.
And as for the UGA Law thing, my own personal feeling is that grad school doesn’t mean jack. I lived on campus for 4 years at Vanderbilt, living and breathing that school and its teams. I’m married and live 10 miles from the University of Georgia, and I go to and from exactly 2 buildings on the campus. I am in no meaningful sense connected to the University of Georgia.
Rob,
You’re right, it’s not rationalization. I apologize.
It is a blatant refusal to just accept the loss like a man, though. The Gators got whipped. Vanderbilt outplayed them in every respect. It’s okay to accept the truth and wait for the next match-up.
To clarify:
“My logic,” as Chuck G and Rob have called it, is being misrepresented. Perhaps I’ve been unclear.
I do not believe this: One who attends a university is necessarily a great fan of that university.
I do believe this: One who is a fan of a university’s athletic program would be a greater fan if he or she were a student or graduate of that school.
I hope this distinction is easier to understand. Even for a Bama graduate like Chuck G. 🙂
Horrible formatting mistake…correct it if you like, Mac. (I meant to make the “do” in bold instead of italics, too.)
Stu, how many times do I have to re-quote this to you:
At the end of the day, Florida played absolutely terrible. When you shoot 40%, turn the ball over 1,374 times, and you generally just play like crap, you’re gonna lose more often than not, even to an more or less mediocre team like Vanderbilt.
Here’s a link to that, just in case you still can’t read it: http://www.braves.net/bravesjournal/?p=2963#comment-97733
“Florida played absolutely terrible.” They “generally just played like crap.” They were beaten very badly. And it most likely will not happen again for atleast a very long time. You got that yet? Do you want me to print it out and mail it to your home? My goodness, man. That was the first thing I had written about the game. Is that “manly” enough for you? You won’t hear that they were beaten by a better team. You won’t hear that Vandy is any more than an unranked (for now), 2nd best team of a conference that is having a down year.
Rob,
What you’re not doing in your quotation there is giving Vanderbilt credit. You downplay Vanderbilt’s achievement by asserting that Florida beat itself. You can do that, but I’m going to call you out on it, because it’s disingenuous and it’s an inaccurate description of what happened.
Vanderbilt was the better team yesterday, and that’s pretty obvious to everyone except you, it seems.
Feel free to re-quote yourself and go off on an other off-point rant, though.
I do believe this: One who is a fan of a university’s athletic program would be a greater fan if he or she were a student or graduate of that school.
That’s ridiculous. A college football/basketball/baseball/volleyball/soccer/polo team is just that: a team. Academics and athletics should be and usually are two totally separate things. You go to a school for school, and it should have nothing to do with the team. Thus, just because your athletic decision and academic decisions line up does not make you any more of a fan. That’s one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard.
Vanderbilt had a nice day where they out-shot and out-defended the Gators, and I’m now willing to recant of my previous position because of some of the posters and say that Vanderbilt is also a very tough place to play. Take nothing more from that win than that. Oh, and that Byars guy is sick. That’s it.
Rob,
Get some sleep. You’re obviously grumpy, and you’re not communicating with any coherency. Try again tomorrow?
Stu, I don’t need you being so condescending. It’s an insult and an attack on not just me but of most people when you make the statements that you make. They are very arrogant and offensive, and if not for my desire to defend my positions (namely that your “fanship” has nothing to do with the school you attend), I would have left you to fester in your ignorance. My arguments have perfect coherence; you just don’t agree with them. Don’t insult my intelligence, and I will not insult yours.
Stu,
Both you and I are ardent subscribers to the Grad School Don’t Mean Jack theory, for similar reasons. In our personal experiences, attending our respective undergrad schools created a bond which seems like it will last forever. Good for us.
But the thing about being a fan is that the experiences that bond you to a particular team are unique to you, so I hesitate to make my personal bond the litmus test by which I will judge all other fans. Personally I never would have given a flying damn about the University of Alabama had I not gone there for undergrad; now I’m making regular trips for football, basketball and sometimes bowls, and calling for Mike Shula’s head (and, thankfully, getting it.) I lived it for four years and four head coaches, I absorbed it, it’s in my blood forever.
I think that makes me a credible Bama fan, but I don’t think that gives me anything over the people who have been attending every game for decades on end despite never having gone to the university. (See Warren St. John’s “Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer” for detailed firsthand explication of this phenomenon.) Maybe you’re a Bama fan because you went to school there, maybe you’re one because you grew up idolizing Freddie Kitchens. (j/k, if it must be said.) Either way, if you’re wearing crimson on Saturday, you’re with me and that’s all I need to know.
So, I’m not going to play the “who’s our REAL fan” game – if you’re down, you’re down, and unless you’re Florida-come-lately that’s all that matters.
Fun Fact: Logan Young, the Alabama booster who got us put on probation by paying off Albert Means’ coach and then died under strange circumstances, was a Vanderbilt grad!
It’s an insult and an attack on…most people when you make the statements that you make.
If what I’ve said offends anyone else, I’m sincerely sorry. I’ve meant only to offend Rob.
Wow, Mr. Stuart, you’ve successfully, as hopefully a grown man, argued with a sophomore in college who doesn’t buy your positions just for the sake of offending him. Congrats. You can now sleep well tonight. It must be those accomplishments that keep you going.
I think that makes me a credible Bama fan, but I don’t think that gives me anything over the people who have been attending every game for decades on end despite never having gone to the university.
Yeah, I just disagree with this. I think you do have something over those people. That “something” might not be history or knowledge, but it’s a sort of connection with the school those non-attendees don’t have.
And I’m quite comfortable making MY litmus test THE litmus test, since mine is the only perspective from which I can make these judgments. Would I force it on others? No. (I have no way of so doing.) But I’ll argue it like crazy because, obviously, I think I’m right.
Mainly, though, I’m just glad you’re finally posting your thoughts on here, sucka.
Rob,
You really should lighten up. That’s my grown-man-to-college-sophomore advice.
Stu has manufactured some kind of warm-and-fuzzies about sharing an address with Vanderbilt and a transcript with Vandy classes on it so that he can imagine some superiority over people WHO CHEER FOR THE SAME TEAM AS HIM. Are you going to tell the Vandy fans that haven’t gone there that they’re not as legitimate a fan as you because they went somewhere else?
Stu, the only thing that make you a “grown man” and me a college sophomore is that your parents conceived you a couple years before me. That’s the only way of explaining why you would argue these ridiculous points.
Alright, ya know what, I apologize for that. You may be ridiculously offensive, but there’s no excuse for me being vindictive and snide like that. I apologize. I’m no longer participating in this discussion. Good thing it looks to be over.
I do think I have connections with the *school* non-attendees don’t have. I went there a couple weekends ago with my family and gave them the guided tour – the second-floor window in a building on the quad where my friends and I perched to throw cans of Sam’s Club soda near joggers to startle them, the spot on the art quad where we put an old discarded toilet we had found and watched it sit there for a month before they figured out it wasn’t an art project, etc. THOSE ARE FOREVER!
I don’t necessarily think that means I have connections with the *team* the Warren St. Johns of the world don’t have, though. We’ve both watched/attended the same games, with the same passion, with the same goal in mind. Again, this goes back to my notion of the idea of bigtime college sports as being Mostly-Pro Team Affiliated w/Educational Institution (I was writing about that shit on ye olde sports law exam, btw). I perceive enough of a disconnect between School and Team that I don’t see them as one and the same. It does make sense to me that you think differently since your school (not a slam here, just a fact) doesn’t really have a huge non-alum fan base.
Bed now, but yes, Braves Journal cherry popped.
Chuck G,
I’m not sure my point there is clear (again). Let me attempt to re-phrase: I’m willing to make my litmus test THE litmus test because, basically, who cares what I think? We aren’t drafting legislation here. We’re giving opinions. If you think I’m crazy or stupid for thinking the way I think, that’s fine! You’re under no obligation to agree with me or take me seriously. I’m just letting everyone know where I stand on these subjects. I think I’m right; you think you’re right. Feel free to argue; it’s silly to take offense.
Rob,
Building on the above, the fun is in messing with people who don’t realize that they can just ignore me if they don’t agree with me. We’re both giving our sides of the argument here, and we’re both poking fun in so doing; only one of us is getting bent out of shape.
Is Vandy’s building so tough because it’s so ugly?
David15–it has to do with the fact that Memorial Gym was designed to hold an orchestra and therefore it was meant to amplify the sound.
As far as ugliness, the court is not really TV friendly. While I have not had the privilege to seeing a Vandy game on TV in many years, I can remember the glare. Also, it seems as if cameras must be further than the court than in other gyms–making it necessary to cover the whole hard wood floor.
Still, for those of us who are lucky enough to see live Vandy games growing up, there is something about that environment which kind of hooks you for life…
It’s tough because:
1) since the floor is elevated, the students and fans are very close to the players; and
2) the team benches are under the baskets instead of on the sidelines, which, when the place is loud, makes it very tough for the opposing coach to communicate with his team; and
3) Vanderbilt basketball fans are very good, since that’s historically the only team that really gives fans a reason to cheer.
ok…it’s time for closing arguments, then let’s move on. you can take your appeal to the men of the square table.
For what it’s worth, I talked with my dad about Vandy this weekend when we saw they beat Florida. He remarked to me about how unique the gym was and how hard it was for other teams to beat Vandy there. He thought Vandy was more of a basketball school than a football school.
(We used to live in Nashville when I was very little for three years – he went to a bunch of Vandy games then)
Anyway, I’m very happy for Byars. Wish you were still a Wahoo, buddy.
Is anyone actually interested in JC’s book. My best friend in college actually rooted against our college. I have a friend that went to Michigan but isn’t into sports and couldn’t care less how the Wolverines do. Going to a school normally, but not always, creates a bond with the sports teams. But, as you all should know from growing up in SEC territory, fans are rabid whether or not they went to the school. I have lots of relatives that didn’t go to UT, but wear orange all the time.