I don’t see much hope for this season now. At some point, Schuerholz will have to move on and start trying to build for the future. A couple of things to consider…
1. The payroll is probably going to be cut because attendance will be down, plus the new suits will probably be even cheaper than the old ones.
2. Do you want to build for 2007, or figure that it’s probably a lost cause?
I don’t think 2007 is a lost cause; anybody (well, almost anybody) is within reach of the playoff in any year. That changes the equation. You’re less likely to deal Andruw or Hudson if you think you can win next year.
Those two players are probably the Braves’ two most valuable commodities. Well, the two most valuable commodities they’re liable to trade; they aren’t going to trade McCann. Call them Group One.
Group Two is the two ten-and-five men, Smoltz and Chipper. Smoltz, were he willing to accept a trade, would probably be much sought-after. Ideally, you get the Red Sox and Yankees into a bidding war. I don’t know how much Chipper would bring in trade.
Group Three are the middle infielders, Giles and Renteria. Their value depends upon finding the right team. I fully expect at least one of them to be traded, because Betemit can probably give you at least as much for a whole lot less money, and infield is a position of strength in the system.
Group Four is Potpourri: Thomson, Ramirez, LaRoche. These players have some value to the right team but probably wouldn’t bring top prospects; the pitchers are health risks.
That’s pretty much everybody who makes anything. There’s not much point in trading cheap players at this stage. Relievers get swapped a lot normally, but who’d want anything out of our bullpen? My guess is that of all the relievers in the pen, McBride is the only one who would bring anything at all and he won’t be traded. I’ll deal with the tradeable commodities in upcoming days.
FANTASTIC. This is exactly the discussion I was hoping to see today.
With Hudson, I’m concerned the performance won’t match the salary and its length (at least on a tight budget). Of course, one would need to have an idea of the budget under Liberty to suggest certainly one way or the other, but in the uncertain state I’m not sure I wouldn’t deal him for prospects. I believe the FA market has been characterized as “weak”, though, so that puts us at a large disadvantage in 2007 even if we end up with budget room.
It seems like there is enough left in the tank to retool for this year, maybe even try to make a push for the WC, but with an eye for ’07. I believe Marcus and Andruw are FA after ’07 and maybe Smoltz too.
Next year Hampton and Davies come back and maybe we’ll get a little luckier in the pen. If things go go so well, you sell off guys at the deadline.
You know, WordPress makes it really easy for me to delete the comments of annoying people.
Wow, I just read my post. Not my best work. It confused me and I wrote it!
Anyway, what I was advocating was retooling this year with an eye toward 2007. Maybe we can make a push for the WC this year, but let’s not mortgage the future to do so. We keep the core around for the 2007 push.
If things don’t go well early next season, then we do a complete overhaul and rebuild around McCann, Frenchy, KJ, and possibly Betemit.
I could only wish that WordPress was implemented at Turner Field then.
I think that 2007 success is a possibility, simply because we have one HUGE hole (bullpen) and lots of decent young pieces offensively.
at some point we need to develop a quality major leaguer from the farm system, and hold onto him. If it’s Davies, thats wonderful, its not Ramirez, that much is obvious. We let the Millwoods and Schmidts go over the years, but there havent been more of them coming up. We need more Millwoods and Schmitds. And we need to not trade them.
I honestly believe that if we overhaul the bullpen, even at the expense of upper level prospects, that we could contend this year and in the future. Our offense is good and we score plenty of runs. Our starting pitching isn’t that bad, especially with Smoltz and Hudson at the front, and more so with Hampton as the third starter next year. Now, I would say deal Thomson and let Davies, Ramirez, and Sosa finish out the rotation this year. If we can deal Thomson and one of Renteria/Giles/Betemit for some bullpen help, then I think we help ourselves for this year and beyond. We will free up atleast Thomson’s salary and even more if we deal Renteria or Giles. Besides, we do have Tony Pena Jr., Escober, and the other prospect (I can’t remember his name) waiting in the middle infield. What do you guys think?
I hate to even think about trading Hudson. Granted, his contract gets larger later, but I believe it gets larger when Hampton comes off. So it balances out, essentially. Plus, you need someone to build around, Smoltz will be here one more year, maybe, so then who do we look at as our “ace” to build a young staff around?
I can’t imagine Group Three fetching much in trade either- the Red Sox ate a big chunk of Renteria’s salary when they traded him here, and Giles’ dropoff is at an age when 2B’s tend to start taking big steps back.
Add Frenchy to Group One. GMs who aren’t familiar with Moneyball are going to monstrously overrate the guy. “35 Home run power! 120 RBI!” we can proclaim. Never mind those 500 outs he’s gonna make, or the rough defense, or bad baserunning.
Where shall we look for prospects?
BaseballAmerica.com: Prospects: 2006 Organization Talent Rankings
The Dodgers seem the best combination of wanting to win now + deep systems + deep pockets.
Francoeur doesn’t make any money, and he’s still considered a piece of the future, and so there’s really little point in trading him. Since a lot of Renteria’s contract is covered, including the buyout, he’s a lot more attractive in trade — plus he’s hit a lot better for the Braves than he did the Sox. Marcus’ value would be to a team with a second-base hole.
Detroit looks like a good trade partner, too. They’ve got terrific starting pitching prospects and a win-now team, and we’ve got a born-and-bred Michigan man to send their way.
Re-enact Smoltz-for-Alexander!
Mac, unless we need to cut payroll- and we really shoudln’t unless we are returning to 1988 attendance- I’d still put Francoeur in the mix, because his hype-to-production ratio is just so high. Yes, he’s young. Yes, he’ll probably improve. But you can’t count on trading off only the expensive old guys.
Will two months be enough to restore people’s faith in Renteria after two mediocre seasons in Boston? As for Giles, 248/334/363 doesn’t fill a hole at 2B. It is a hole.
Hey guess what?
We will not trade Smoltz! Jesus Christ!
You know what, lets get radical
Andruw for A-Rod
What the heck, play A-Rod at SS, trade Giles and move Renteria to 2nd base. JUST DO SOMETHING JS!!
Smitty, why not? Other than sentimental reasons?
Next year!
Hell even this season if we can make a run.
Brian J.—Renteria was only in Boston for one year.
I’m not so sure I’d want A-Rod on the Braves. Even if the Yankess were to eat most of his contract, people would look at A-Rod and say the Braves have money.
I wish we could get Chase Utley, but know there’s no way in the world that ever happens. He scares me to death…
Francoeur’s not gonna get traded.
And you know what? If he hits 30 HRs & drives in 95/100, that’s good, not bad, esp. for a guy with less than 2 years of MLB service. BTW, those RBI are real runs he drove in, real runs that scored and scoring runs beats people. This context-dependent talk is true to an extent in the overall evaluation of performance, but I don’t knock guys for knocking in runs. I don’t over-value it, but I don’t knock it either. Strikes me as silly.
We all know Frenchy’s deficiencies. The Braves know his deficiencies, but he’s cheap and I suspect he’ll get better. Yes, he needs to improve, but we ain’t trading him any time soon.
If we wind up keeping Smoltz, Hudson, the Jones boys, and get Hampton back next year, how much will the Braves be paying them? Won’t that group be too expensive to keep together? Aren’t we only able to keep that group this year because insurance is paying for most of Hampton’s salary and Hudson is still relatively inexpensive? I think at least one of that group will have to go.
I’m also not convinced that Marcus really wants to stay in Atlanta once he’s eligible for free agency. Now that Bobby has shown a willingness to use Betemit at 2b, I’d rather try and trade Marcus, even though he’s having a horrible season and won’t bring what he would have at the end of last year, and play Betemit at second.
My mistake- Renteria’s 2004 season was in St. Louis. But it was mediocre (287/327/401).
As for Frenchy, teams aren’t likely to only ask for the old guys; they’re likely to want a young player if we’re going to get the best prospects or good young major leaguers. Frenchy is going to have negative value with 100 RBI unless that .270 OBP improves dramatically.
I’d rather trade Frenchy than Langerhans or Salty or McCann or Startup or even Thorman.
Who are we going to get from the Tigers for Smoltz anyway ??? They aren’t trading Verlander, Bonderman, or Zumaya and Maroth is hurt. After seeing Glavine leave, it would be awfully tough to stomach Smoltz leaving, especially when a few changes can be made and ’07 (probably Smoltzies’ last season) could bring something promising. Do we plan on getting Zach Miner and Roman Colon back ??
mmmm . . . Dodgers prospects. . . . . They’re loaded with good players. We could trade for a good LaRoche, (though he did recently get hurt). But I’d rather see them get high level pitching back in any trade. Chad Billingsley is who I’d want. He’d be expensive, but then again we’re talking about trading our best players.
You guys are starting to go off the deep end. I don’t blame you, I am on my way. Hell it is still June.
Here I am tossing you guys a life raft ———–O
Langer & Thorman are career backups. You gotta to be out of your mind if you think they have anywhere near the upside of Francoeur. Bloody hell.
One more thing. Just saw that the Rangers have waived Antonio Alfonseca. How long till Schuerholz snaps him up? With our bullpen void and his love of signing ex-Braves, how can he resist?
I trade Thomson, Sosa, and Ray now, Giles if I can get fair value for him. Then wait until the offseason and feel out the Andruw market.
I don’t see the point of trying to go for it next year. This team just doesn’t have the depth of talent you need for an honest-to-God championship run. And the bullpen is just too horrible all-around to fix with just one or two guys, even if we had the money to get a top-notch reliever, which we don’t. Even if they can get the smoke-and-mirrors act back together, what’s the best we can hope for? Another first-round exit before Andruw and Giles leave, Smoltz retires and Chipper, Renteria, Hampton, and Hudson start showing their age? Better to get some good young players to compliment McCann, invest the savings in a quality, Maddux-esque free agent a few years down the line (Santana? Peavy? Cabrera?) and try to build something with upside, something that’ll last, instead of just trying to tread water every year.
I’d like to see the Braves put together a really dominant team again, and I don’t see that happening with the current group.
I trade Thomson, Sosa, and Ray now, Giles
Thomson = no value
Sosa = no value
Ray = no value
Giles = no value
Laroche = no value
Reitsma = no value
None of these guys will be traded because frankly no one wants or needs them. The only team that most/any of those guys would be an upgrade to would be the Royals, and even they have already cut Ray.
Of that group, Giles easily has the most value. He’s having a lousy year, but he would be a good fit for any team that needs a non-lead-off-hitting second baseman.
I’d take 6 Fingers McGee right now. He can’t be much worse than Paranto or Stockman.
re: Smoltz
Another thing that makes him so valuable is that he’s a bargain. If I’m not mistaken, his option for next year is $8 million. We wouldn’t be able to replace his production for anywhere near that.
Great point.
You know, this is all Todd Pratt’s fault. He’s playing in the NL East almost his entire career, and has never won the division. He’s just keeping his own personal streak alive.
Tanto,
I agree with you in your statement that on paper the team doesn’t look like a title contender, but look at some of the recent WS champs: 05 Sox, 03 Marlins, 02 Angels, 01 Dbacks. None of them looked like championship calibre teams either. They were simply solid, competitve teams with stregths and weaknesses that got hot at the right time.
With a little tinkering the 07 Braves could fit that mold. I’m not convinced that the 06 Braves can’t get hot, win the WC and carry that momentum to the World Series.
That being said, if we can pilfer some top level talent for mediorities like LaRoche, Thomson, or even Renteria. I say we pull the trigger. Especially if it’s for good, young starting pitching.
I don’t think, if you’re trading Smoltz, your goal is to replace his production. At least not immediately. You trade Smoltz because 8 million dollars, while more than reasonable for a pitcher of his caliber, may be too much money to spend for someone on a non-playoff team, and because he’ll bring back at least one PRIME prospect (probably 2).
Smitty, you’re taking too lightly the Smoltz trade talk. He’s incredibly valuable and he’s open to being traded. As much as I’d hate to see it happen, it certainly could.
Also, I assume that the religious talk forbidden on this site includes taking my God’s name in vain. I’d appreciate it if you could find other ways of conveying your emotions.
We just need to retool the pen. ESPN started that trade Smotlz stuff last night and too may of you are buying into it. It is still JUNE!
No, Smoltz started the trade stuff when he discussed the possibility of it and his openness to it in an interview. Nobody here is saying it WILL happen, but you’re the only one ridiculously saying there’s no way it will. Yes, it’s still June. The other side of that coin is that it’s June and we’re already 14 games out of first and in last place in the division. And we’re only a month away from trade season.
We just need to retool the pen.
We need to do more than that. As I said before, this bullpen is just two horrible to fix with one or two guys. Even if JS gets Brian Cashman drunk and convinces him to trade us Rivera for a bag of balls, that just pushes the number of bad pitchers in the pen down to six.
It would be one thing if everyone else in the division was struggling too and we were just five or six back…but the Braves have been so terrible this month that even if they go on a miraculous run, they still won’t be able to close a full 14 game gap. I mean, how often does that happen?
Smoltz just said he wouldn’t rule it out. It has to do with his option for next season. ESPN brought it all to light. No one was even thinking about dealing Smoltz intil then. Even if we do fall out of the wild card, we still have him for next season and our pen will be a lot stronger with Boyer and Foster back.
Why are we not shopping Betemit to the Pirates? We aren’t going to play him everyday. No one wants Giles. Chipper isn’t moving to first. Just go ahead and trade him.
Of the 22 second basemen qualified for the batting lead, Marcus is dead last in average and 17th in OPS. He has no value.
Sigh.
He didn’t say he wouldn’t rule it out. He said that he expected it to be a real possibility. Big difference.
You think Foster will make our ‘pen stronger? Either that statement is incorrect or the one you made about this bullpen only needing “retooling” is.
If we’re shopping Betemit, why would it be to the Pirates. What do they have–that they’re willing to trade–that would make it worth parting with the WB?
I don’t even think we could get Christian Guzman from the Nats for Giles at this point.
Really, OneEye? How was Nomar doing when the Sox shipped him to the Cubs for prospects a couple years ago? Pretty terribly, and he was never healthy. But based on PAST performance, a team with a hole was willing to give up something of value for him.
Aaron Miles is the starting shortstop for the Cardinals. You don’t think they’d be interested?
Teams don’t make trades for players based solely on their current season stats. I thought that was common knowledge.
Well Stu,
Mike Gonzalez would be nice to have at the end of the pen. He would give us the closer we need and put everyone else into a defined role. That might settle the pen down somewhat. A Betemit/Escobar package might get him.
Why trade Giles when we can get more for Betemit? We aren’t going to play him. The Pirates are just one team. I think, right now, trading Betemit gives us the best chance to compeat this season and next.
Yeah I think Foster is as good of a pticher as anyone else out there right now.
Why trade Giles when we can get more for Betemit?
You aren’t serious.
1. Betemit makes far less money than Giles.
2. Giles will be a free agent after next season, while the Braves control Betemit’s rights (assuming the current CBA holds) through 2010.
3. Betemit can play three positions, Giles can play one.
Don’t trade Francoeur unless you think, at 22, this is as good as he is going to get. Andruw wasn’t any better, but everyone seems to love him. If Francoeur was on a bad team, everyone would be talking about his potential. But, because he was brought up before he was ready and is on what was supposed to be a championship team, he is getting crushed. I mean, even granting the low OBP, how can you watch his power and speed and not at least give him a chance to grow? This is the kind of panic that the Braves don’t need.
I think he is the one we should trade. We are not playing him and no one is going to take Giles. We have some young middle infielders in the system that could be close to ready by 08. If we want to make our selfs better now, the Betemit is the one to trade.
Uh, hey, everybody! I’m a stupid moron with an ugly face and big butt and my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt!
Teams judge a player on his past performance, true. But Giles’ certainly does not have the kind of history that Nomar had in Boston – that is, a great one. At his best, he has been a good hitter with decent defense. But all that being said, Giles has some value right now… let’s deal him – if we can get anything – before it’s too late.
Is JS capable of being a seller? Why do I keep reading he’s spending his time signing books and not facing up to reality?
Hmm… some more trades in the minors today…
these involving Mississippi…
RHP Paul Bush was promoted to AAA
RHP Anthony Lerew was reassigned to AA from AAA
OF Gregor Blanco was promoted to AAA
OF Brandon Jones was promoted to AA from High-A Myrtle Beach
Another fun thing to do is to change the text of annoying people’s posts.
Good work Mac
I didn’t say Giles has had Nomar-type history. I only used Nomar–there are many others–as an example of a player having value based not on the last 3 months of his play.
I’m just glad you maintained our friend’s punctuation style, Mac.
The B-Jones promotion is interesting. He was only hitting .257 in MB but with good peripherals.
The way things are going, if Blanco plays adequately in Richmond he’ll probably be up sooner or later. He has no power whatsoever, but his OBP in Mississippi was .397 and he was 17 of 23 in stolen bases. Gregor was born about 20 years too late — they would have loved him in 1986.
Stu, when the Red Sox traded Nomar in 2004 (and it wasn’t for prospects), he was hitting .321/.367/.500. I’m not so sure that’s a good example.
Ok…bad example. Point stands, and you know it does.
I know what you meant. I was just being ornery.
The Cubs are also a dumb organization. We could spend a year discussing all the terrible moves they have made in the last 40 years.
It was actually a terrible example. Those stats were at least in very limited action, right?
Well, the existance of dumb organizations only furthers my point, Smitty. The more there are, the more that would be willing to give up value for the valueless. (Note: I don’t think Marcus is actually valueless like some here apparently do.)
I see the value in Blanco, but he doesn’t exite me for some reason. I hear he’s got good defensive skills, though.
The Brandon Jones promotion is interesting. His average was close to .300 a few weeks ago but he’s been on a real slide. I’m exited for him to move up though, because he’s got great potential.
Off topic:
The good folks over at Deadspin have some nice shots up of dirty, creepy old men Paul LoDuca & Cliff Floyd partying with drunk college chicks.
Perhaps Mac could further edit danny kolb’s post to include a link to said photographs?
He has some value, but only to a contender. I don’t see many of the contenders needing a second baseman and can give us anything in return. The Cards would be the best place to send him, but who can we get back that might help us? The A’s might bite. Calero and another pitcher wouldn’t be too bad for Giles.
I’ll talk about who to trade Giles to when I write that post. The Cards and A’s seem the logical choices. Anyone received from the Cards would be a long way away, because all their talent is in A-ball.
I would definately explore trading Renteria and Giles. You always want to trade from your organizational depth and the Braves have Prado, Escobar, Andrus waiting in the wings as major prospects and plenty of backups like Pena available as well. I would like to see Chipper take some groundballs this offseason at first base. Moving from third to first late in their careers seemed to have worked out well for players like Jim Thome, etc. It will only help Chipper stay healthy and prolong his career. Put Betemit at 3rd, Chipper at 1st, Escobar at SS, Prado at 2B. You’re obviously fine with McCann and Pena at C with Salty needing another year of seasoning in the minors. Trade LaRoche for bullpen help or whatever you can get for him, these days 1B like him grow on trees or can be had very cheaply via FA if needed (see Lee, Travis and Perez, Eduardo). Thorman/Jurries will work out well playing backup 1B and sharing left field (if Diaz is not kept around). The Braves need to figure out who they like best out of Kelly Johnson, Langerhans, Diaz, Jurries, etc., and trade the others for bullpen help. The rotation IMHO is the least of our concers. I think if Smoltz and Hudson are kept around, pairing those two with Davies, Chuckie James, and HoRam, there are far worse rotations and hopefully Anthony Lerew straightens himself out because I believe that one of the Davies/James/Lerew trio will become a Millwood or Schmidt as it has been mentioned that we need.
As bad as our bullpen has sucked this year, I think that with Boyer and Devine coming back and (hopefully) an increased workload from the starters next year not putting such a strain on the bullpen that only a couple of reliable veterans need to be added down there. With McBride, Boyer, Devine, Stockman, Startup, etc, that is at least a decent foundation to fill the 6/7/8th innings with a closer being added via trade or FA.
I’m really gonna miss Blanco… he’s one that I had gotten attached to keeping up with in Mississippi. He does walk a LOT though!
Thome was moved to first very early in his career, but the basic point is true. Brett played a lot of first late in his career, so did Evans, Nettles, Torre. Schmidt played about a season’s worth of games at first, mostly late in his career.
Schuerholz says he has been close to striking a few deals and it can be guaranteed he will make a move in the near future. But there are so many holes, the question remains, “Where should he start?”
on http://www.atlantabraves.com
too little, too late JS
Best Simpsons Reference EVER
I think Sosa is one that we can move
Andruw’s Song (It’s All His Fault) – Braves Journal
I have heard Devine might not ever get over this back problem
Stu, it was in about 160 ABs. Not big, but enough, I’d say. I think your point is well-taken, even if you didn’t really look at your examples before you wrote them ;-). We can definitely get value for Marcus based on history alone. Maybe not as much as we could have gotten last year, but I don’t think he has utterly lost his abilities and solid 2Bs don’t exactly grow on trees. But I’m against trading him just because I don’t think he has utterly lost his abilities. I still want to try Betemit at 1B and trade LaRoche instead. There is no harm now, even if he is slow on the learning curve; things can’t get much worse. But we’d probably get even less value for him. LaRoche, I mean.
Oh and another thing I just thought of…
Blanco was the lead-off hitter in Mississippi… could be something to watch!
No more Blancos on the Braves please!
BTW,
Whoever it was the posted Rob Neyer’s email address here the other day, had it correct. I got a not-so nice email back. Anyone who would like to see it, let me know and I’ll forward it to you
I’d love to see it.
email me at tech@cbpsoffice.com and I’ll forward it on
I’ll take a look goody16@bellsouth.net
I was once accused by Dan Shaughnessy of hacking his e-mail. He had it all wrong, because if I were skilled enough to hack his e-mail, I also would have left a virus on his computer. And I wouldn’t have felt any remorse whatsoever.
That article on braves.com was kind of funny. If we’re still thinking about making a run at the division, we’ve got the wrong philosophy. I don’t want this team to run at the division. I want us to fix all these holes we’ve built up for about 4 years now so we can make a more solid run at it in years to come and maybe get past the first round this time instead of waiting for lightning to strike.
Devine has a degenerative problem or something, correct?
I’d like to see it Lance. cjmote@knology.net
Release Reitsma and watch everything change right now. He is bad karma, poison in the well, and the rotten apple that spoils the whole bunch (but I’m sure he’s a darned nice guy). The team went south after watching him almost single-handedly give away game after game and management do nothing. Otherwise, the only hope for recovery is a promotion to burn copies of the Scheurholz book at Turner Field. Pride goeth before the fall.
Mac,
In regards to B-Jones don’t forget that .257 in MB ain’t too shabby.
I think there is a deadline market for Thomson, Sosa and possibly Ramirez if they can put some decent starts together.
Contending teams are always shopping for inning eating league average arms without huge contracts at the deadline. IF, and that is a big IF, those three can show they are anything resembling league average we might be able to flip them for A ball prospects.
I think the major trades should wait till the offseason.
JB
Lance, send it along to zsmith@gmail.com .. Thanks!
Oops. I just realized what Lance’s email actually said.
Don’t spam me, everybody!
I don’t think we have a chance for the World Series nex year.
All we need is a better pitching coach and more money. I could give the Braves a few bucks. Lets all do a telethon next year so that the Braves can sign a few free agent.
Salomon Torres gave up 5 hits in 1&1/3 today so he should fit right in to this bully.
Sign him up.
He has no value.
Unless you believe that a players’ value is solely determined by what he’s done in his last 300 ABs, and that prior history has no bearing at all.
Tony Batista keeps getting chances; I can’t see why a bad half-season would cause every single major league team to give up on a guy who has been — up until now — an All-Star caliber player, every single year.
Giles was an “All-Star Caliber” player in 2003. In 2004 he was hurt half the year and 2005 he put up decent numbers (just a tad better that Betemit that year and worse than what Betamit is doing this year).
You are going to need to take off your Braves-tinted glasses here…Go down the list of teams out there and who their 2B is. There are only 1 or 2 teams that Marcus would be an upgrade for. Just like Laroche – You have to find someone who wants him before you can trade him. Finding a team who wants a player qualifies 24th out of 26 possible first basemen.
I think there’s something to the publication of JS’ book and the demise of the Braves’ fortunes in the same season. I know that I could blame the bad bullpen, inconsistent hitting, poor infield defense, and all-around lackadaisical play – but I think I want to blame that book, if only because it’s so polemical.
Stu – I know you weren’t saying Giles was the type of player Nomar was in Boston, and I do think that despite your now total repudiation of the analogy that it still holds up. Giles will be judged by his play over the past three seasons, which has been very good, and he’s still around his peak seasons. He can definitely yield some interest from a contender like Oakland.
I want to see it too
bsmith9215@yahoo.com
Last night was the 5th time the bullpen blew the lead for Smoltz. Im not sure about the the other SPs. Obvious point: bullpen help! We can trade for help w/ the likes of Giles, Langy, LaRoche, Thomson, Diaz and/or prospects (Salty etc…). It can be done!
But what relievers are out there and what do their owners need? I guess that’s what Mac’s going to try to answer…does Giles, Hans, Roachy, etc. = Joe Nathan?
I will play Devil’s Advocate here……..we keep speaking of how bad some guys are playing…..well, should we be looking at the coaching staff? I mean, look at the pitching………..could the problem be from the pitching coach? And please tell me why Pendleton has not reigned in Francoeur????? Yes, Bobby Cox is and will be one of the best out there…..and certainly his staff is qualified, but couldn’t they have a “bad year” like anyone else? Ok, I will stop beating up on the coaches. Just a thought.
We need to be able to get to the closer. We might have a closer in Ray or Stockman maybe Sosa if we can get a SP. Im sure there are options, its about making the right decesion and timing.
Here’s an article from today’s Boston Herald about Edgar. Enjoy.
click here
Question for ya’ll…
would you trade Jarrod Saltalamacchia and other prospect(s) to Tampa Bay for Carl Crawford?
It sure would be a tough decision, maybe they’d take Brayan Pena and others instead…haha
The last line of that Herald article is a pretty cheap shot considering how diplomatic Edgar was in his comments about the fans and how effusive he was in his praise for his ex-teammates. Just look at anything ever written by Bill Simmons to see how little confidence Sox fans have in their players. I wonder if the writer told him that she was going to bury him like that at the end of what read like a friendly interview…
Knowing that we have McCann and eventually Max Ramirez, yes, I would trade to get Crawford in his prime.
Unless McCann gets hurt again (and seriously), I believe Salty will be sent somewhere. Maybe not right now, but at some point.
What Edgar says about the Boston fans is true. Granted, it was up to him to perform & he didn’t. But living in the Northeast, I’ve seen some behavior from “loyal fans” that was just disgraceful.
At Shea, Piazza got off to a slow start with a very mediocre team & they booed him for more than a month. When Tino Martinez replaced Mattingly in 1996, they were all over him the first month he played in The Bronx. I know, because I was at those games. Ridiculous.
I’m not saying you can’t boo people, but…in April? That’s not passion; that’s self-loathing.
There was an article somewhere…I forget where exactly… about how stupid Tampa would be to trade Crawford. He’s 26, in the 2nd year of his 6 year contract and one of the best outfielders in baseball.
I don’t see it happening.
Hey everyone. Long-time reader, first time poster. Great site. Speaking of the
hubris of “Built to Win”, I have always felt that the Braves postseason failures
were entirely due to the fact that they put “Team of the 90’s” on their WS rings
.This with the decade half over and the Blue Jays having won back to back series
. Then of course the Yankees dominated the rest of the decade. Those must look pre
pretty stupid now.
I would make the deal for crawford. He is
proving that he can hit .300, he will probally
end up with around 20 HR or so and he can
easily steal 50 bases. He is a speedy lead-off
hitter witch is what the Braves need to start
to get back on the right track. Plus Tampa
could make the deal since they do have Delmon
Young and Rocco amd they dont have any good
catchers.(Toby Hall and Josh Paul) The braves
can afford to trade Salty because Brayan Pena
is more than capable of backing up Brian.
Does anyone mind sending the aforementioned E-Mail that Lance was talking about to CPrince045@hotmail.com
it’d be greatly appreciated
I just read that Boston article about Edgar and it was complete B.S. The last line was a total cheap shot and Edgar is a class act.
Since I am the person who posted the Rob Neyer email address, I will follow suit and post the writer of this article’s email address as well. I will be sending her a note myself.
kguregian@bostonherald.com
The arrogance of people in Boston about their franchise is beyond alarming.
I’d be interested to see Neyer’s email too. I emailed him earlier this year (about Matt Diaz), and got back a couple of polite replies.
Email: mrfyde@yahoo.com
Off the subject, but with the way things are going, tomorrow’s game looks to be a real pitcher’s duel. Jorge Sosa, with an ERA of almost 6 and a 1-9 record vs. Josh Towers (1-8, 9.00). Will anyone here be surprised if Towers pitches a shutout?
I was hoping for a signature-type win that led to a great turnaround. At this point, I’ll settle for a 2-1 victory against one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball.
As for the trade talks. I still say build the team to at least improve this year and give you at shot at the WC, but look more towards next year.
Towers will be up for the MVP after his nohit bid
I am sending it in the morning but I have written a long, scathing letter to this so called Boston Journalist.
You know…before their World Series win, I was one of the many who actually grew to admire the Red Sox and their loyal fans and felt like I could “pull for them”. Well, they have their title and my ‘sympathy’ is long gone.
Between the jacka– fans this past weekend and their arrogant, obnoxious and condascending sports writers, “Red Sox Nation” Makes me sick and everyone last member of their nation can kiss my white a–.
Thank you for posting her email, I’ll include what I just wrote her:
Karen,
The article you wrote in today’s Herald about Edgar Renteria included a cheap shot that was totally uncalled for. You wonder why players don’t like the media in Boston and why players don’t like to talk to the media and it’s crap like what you pulled today that leaves a sour taste in the players mouths.
Let’s go over a rundown of Renteria’s career: played for Florida and won a WS, was he booed there ? No. Played for St. Louis and reached another World Series, was he booed there ? No. Currently playing for the Braves and excelling and playing as good as any shortstop in baseball this season. So was his whole career other than last year an aberration, or was just last year an aberration ? So did he have good enough “makeup” to play for other championship caliber teams but not good enough “makeup” to play in Boston or are the fans in Boston unappreciative and impatient. I would say based upon his whole career that the latter is more true than the former.
Boston fans need to remember that the Braves have won just as many World Series as they have the last 80 plus years and maybe when no more Latin free agents sign with the Red Sox after what has happened with Manny Ramirez and Renteria, etc., maybe then Sox fans will see that the players who lack “makeup” aren’t the problem, it’s the fans that run quality players and people out of town like Renteria is the reason why hopefully they won’t win another World Series in the next 86 years either.
Sincerely,
John K. Jansons
I realize I am off subject but I haven’t been this appalled by an anti Braves column since this one last Fall:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3384383.html
Ahhhh…Good ole Roger Clemens lovin’ Richard Justice.
I love how “40,590 fans began streaming out of Turner Field. Either they’d given up on their Braves or there was wrestling on television.”
Yes, Richard you reject from the film, “Galaxy Quest”, no one in Houston ever watches wrestling that you have to accuse our fans of that.
Very classy posting of Richard Justice.
Great stuff, JJ…honestly, a much classier andnicer response then what I had planned-p-as far as I am concerned, that letter can speak well for all of us.
However, if you would like a belated letter opportunity to Richard Justice, go for it:
richard.justice@chron.com
Dunno if anyone linked this, but here’s JS on trade rumors in the AJC:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/0620braves.html
I didn’t really see the problem with the article. Yeah, the last line could have been left out, but compared to some of the crap that gets written (hello, Curly-Haired Bastard!), it was pretty tame. And I don’t see what was so wrong about it. Renteria didn’t have the makeup for Boston. The article only proves that. I don’t want to be insensitive to the guy, but if the fan reception was the reason for his lousy year, then he really didn’t have the mental makeup to succeed there. And I think this is really reversing cause and effect. You get booed because you’re lousy, not the other way around. It can feed a loop, but it starts somewhere. And you’re not going to change a million fans, so you just have to ride with it. Why didn’t Renteria mention his back injury? It might have garnered more sympathy for all those errors (FWIW, I think it’s still bothering him). Instead, he blamed the infield, which made everybody defensive and was totally ridiculous, as he had more errors on the road.
Perhaps I have a hard time with Renteria because I didn’t like losing Marte to get him and I subconsciously resent him for it (I think I’m psychoanalyzing myself!), but that article didn’t bother me at all. It was entertaining.
I agree w/ Jenny about the artical…and i like Renteria. Honestly, he didnt have the “makeup” last year to play in Boston. I can see how it looks like she stabbed him in the back w/ the last comment…but thats the media for you. Im glad to have Renteria.
The problem with the article isn’t that it faulted Renteria; it is that it was presumably giving him a chance to present his side of what happened in Boston, only to undercut him with the final sentence in a nasty fashion. An objectively written article critiquing Rentaria would be fine. To my mind, that article was cowardly.
I’m with you Smitty. I can’t believe anyone is talking about trading John Smoltz.
Thank God the people suggesting that aren’t John Schuerholz and are powerless.
From that link:
“The team hasn’t discussed trading John Smoltz, Tim Hudson or the Joneses, Chipper and Andruw. All are signed beyond this season, and Smoltz and Chipper Jones can veto any trade.
The team says it believes Mike Hampton will be fully recovered from elbow surgery next season and join Smoltz and Hudson to lead a formidable starting rotation.”
GOOD! I’m really looking forward to that three-man rotation.
Players who won’t be traded because they are in the teams short term/long term future plans: Smoltz, Chipper, Andruw, Hudson
Playesr who may be traded becuase they are not in said plans and will provide some value for other teams in playoff contention: Thomson, Giles, Renteria.
The other guys may be throw-ins, but not trade will center around any of the rest; just not enough impact on a team looking for the final peace for a WS bid.
Anyhow, I think Giles and Thomson are the most likely to go. Thomson is a solid SP, and depth at SP is something all contending teams can use. Also, he’s relatively cheap and a FA after the season. Giles is also an FA after the season, and 2B is, IMO, a position of some depth. Not only could Betemit play as a 2B (assuming Chipper doesn’t move to first in the off-season), but Prado also looked pretty good and could step up next year.
Renteria I see as a major success for Atlanta in the off-season, and I don’t really see him getting moved. I mean, the Braves will certainly re-tool for 2007, so there’s no reason to move a good-hitting SS at this point (unless there’s a really, REALLY good deal out there).
Giles has another year of arby left after this season, I believe.
Again, I think Chipper has to move to first and let Betemit cover third. This will give us the power bat, if he still has it, at first and will help our infield defense. This way we keep Giles and Betemit. Outfield stays the same w/ the addition of KJ who can bat leadoff. If not get someone to play left and can bat leadoff. Hopefully Devine, Foster, and Boyer can make up the pen. We can trade Thomson and Sosa and a prospect for that solid reliever such as a Shields, Williamson, Linebrink, or Nathan type. Starting rotation of Huddy, Smoltz, Hampton, Davies, and James/Ramirez sounds very solid too me.
Rosenthal, discusses the Braves options w/ Smoltz. Also makes reference to Liberty Media already owning the Braves. Is that official?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5710100
Well it sounds like we have the next ten games to decide what the deal is. Can we all rally around the next ten days before we call it quits? We must all chip in for this to happen! We have to be positive and supporting. Everyone neds to get involved.
Alex, Stu, csg you guys find a way for us to go 6-4, 7-3. Scout the Jays, Rays, and Assholes. Find there weak points
Mac, find something psoitive about the bullpen and beg Bobby to use it.
Jenny, motivate your boy Giles (any way you have to)
Everyone else pick a player, respond on here on how you will motive them. We have 25 guys. If we all are responsible for one, we can get them through this!
Dan, you and I will try to keep these people positive.
Danny Kold, got to hell and take your New York Mets with you!
10 games! Let’s go!!!
Lots of typos in that speach. I hope you are still motivated!
Smitty, I’m always motivated. For us to do this we have to score quickly, get a big lead, and DONT WALK ANYONE! I’m calling for 8-2 over the next 10 days, dont know how it will happen but it will.
I love it csg!
Mac, can you do a write up on how we are going to turn it around? Or can I?
The way our team was hitting the other night and even scored after the pen imploded, didn’t give up, that was great!
Jenny-
You seem like such a nice person. I don’t know how/when you got swept up in this Red Sox madness. Just kidding…but let me assure you, the fans up here are nuts. Like Robert Deniro in “The Fan” (terrible, terrible movie by the way…like embarrassed-to-admit-i-watched-it terrible).
Anyways, I’ve talked to several old-school, true Bostonians and they don’t even go to the games anymore. If you go to Fenway today, there are more people wearing pink hats waiting for their chance to sing “Sweet Caroline” than there are people who understand what a breaking ball is.
Last year, they decreased the size of beer cups in a attempt to sober up the fans. It only takes one trip to Fenway to see that Boston is a huge college town.
I know Turner Field is not the greatest example of a knowledgable baseball crowd. That said, I do think that most people there would agree that this is just baseball. Maybe it’s just my nice southern side but I, for one, would not want to be considered part of the 2006 Red Sox fan base.
I also had to listen to people demanding Theo to trade Manny when he went 0-15 (or something) last week against the Twins. Then, he homers off of Smoltz and he’s a hero again. Weird.
Matt in Boston
Your job in the turn around is to find out from the Red Sox fans what we can yell at A-Rod and Jeter to get in their heads!
I’ll take Pete Orr.
I will motivate him by telling him he’s a poor man’s Keith Lockhart, he’s barely hitting above Todd Pratt, and if he doesn’t wake up, we’re trading him to the Cubs.
Good work Brad, noting like the Blue Jays comming to town to motivate the Canuck!
Here is some good news for our run:
Jays-comming off a sweep by the fish
Rays-suck
Yanks-dropped 8-11
I think I am going to take Frenchy. In fact I am going to write the Braves an e-mail and see if they will pass it along to him.
Is Horacio still scheduled to start this week? He’s always been good at Turner Field or will Chuck James start in his place? Will Chuck James take Cormier’s spot if not Horacio?
I haven’t heard anything on this…
Horacio will make the start Thursday against A.J. Burnett. James will start Saturday against Tampa Bay presumably taking Cormier’s roster spot.
We will be fine as long as we stop walking people. Hudson walking the bases loaded on Friday was unacceptable. Same thing with Smoltz on Sunday. And there is absolutely no excuse for McBride to walk Nixon and Varitek after striking out Ortiz and Ramirez. Walks are becoming a major problem. TRUST YOUR STUFF.
I’ll take LaRoche (I know AlexR would love the opportunity to ride his A**). I’m afraid if Alex gets a hold of him he may have a complete mental crack down. I’ll tell him to go all A.D.H.D. on the other team’s players when they get to first base. I’ll also remind him to cover first base every time he runs out of the dugout. As for his offense, I’ll ask him kindly to just not screw up.
I’ll take Pratt, I will tell him that if he really wants to help out and be a team player, he should quietly clean out his locker and leave town in the middle of the night. I’ll tell him to make it look like he has vanished, then when word gets out of his disapearence, the team will rally around the drama and “do it for Todd”
Cory I think you should take Hudson
Great pitching match-up tonight. We need to get on Towers quickly. He’s given up 45 ER in 45 IP. Teams are batting .365 against him. Lets make him throw a lot of pitches and WE CANT WALK ANYONE!!!!
Josh Towers 1-8 9.00 ERA
Jorge Sosa 1-9 5.35 ERA
Ok Smitty I will take Hudson. I will bring out his dominance. We all know he is capable. His pitches are too good to be offering free passes.
What does it mean exactly to “take” a Braves player here? Are you focusing your karma towards helping them perform better? Are you simply rooting for them? Or are you taking responsibility for their success or failures?
I think I missed a thread a while back that explained it all.
drzachary, read thread #129 –
DrZach,
Yes read #129! Then pick your player. So far here is who is taken
Orr-Brad
Frenchy-Me
LaRoche-JoshQ
Pratt-dans
Hudson-Cory
Pitching matchup of the week Clemens vs. Liriano.
We need someone to take Sosa for tonight. If we are going to get back in the race, it starts tonight with Sosa.
Yeah, Sosa is up for grabs. Who wants him? Where is Alex, Mac, Jenny, Rob, anyone?
Okay, assuming noone else wants him, I’ll take Chad Paronto. He’s probably in a really dark place right now, and needs some encouragement.
To motivate him, I’ll strap him down in a chair, Clockwork Orange style and play a loop of his domination of Ortiz and Ramirez in our last home loss to the Evil Empire II. At the moment of the strikeout and the resultant cheers (might have to do some creative audio editing :-/), I will use chemical therapy to increase his seratonin and endorphin levels. Using a similar method, I will induce nausea while playing what followed Ortiz and Ramirez. Maybe I’ll splice in some Reitsma and Kolb while continuing the negative reinforcement just to make sure the point gets across.
Then we’ll go out for Dippin’ Dots! Ice Cream! Of! The! Future!
Well, I guess all this talk makes me an undercover agent, because I’ll be at all 3 Braves/Yanks games in The Bronx next week. I’ll be entertaining visitors from Georgia. I sure hope we have something to celebrate.
i will take jordan and threaten to spraypaint “jordan sucks” on all his real estate if he comes off of the dl any time during the year.
drzachary, when will “dippin’ dots” become ice cream of the present? it has to be coming, right?
Is it wrong for a not-so-small part of me to want the demise to accelerate, so the front office doesn’t get any misguided ideas about trading the future to make a playoff push now?
As a Hawks fan, I have a lot of practice in the ‘root for a high pick’ philosophy (not that it’s done much.)
I’m hoping for a happy balance…We make some moves to try to do something in the present while not mortgaging the future.
ryan, you know part of taking Jordan mean you have to keep him on the DL. About day 13 his shoulder may be feeling better. That’s when something like his knee may need to start hurting, get the point?
i got friends in low places. thor WILL rise!
can you put players on the dl for “hurt pride”? we would have at least 3 that could ride that one out for the year.
I assume one reason keeping people such as Kevin Barry from being called up is that there isn’t any room on the 40 man, correct?
Ryan, only if the 1st three are Villareal, Pratt, and Remlinger. After that we will look to see who else needs to ride the DL for the rest of the year
Someone hurry and take Sosa and Ken Ray
Crap, I kind of wish I had taken Thorman now. In the depths of my $9-beer-fueled misery at Turner Field on Sunday, I made lots of jokes about “Thor Man” to keep myself entertained, remarking about how his throws from left field looked like lightning bolts from Valhalla, how he swung his bat like a mighty Norse hammer, etc.
DrZachary,
Paranto REALLY needs the love now!
How did Thorman look in the field? Does he have a strong arm?
I’ll take McCann. My motivation would be something to the effect of, “look, just do what you’ve been doing, don’t listen to a word anybody says.” Now, somebody will have to take Bobby to make sure he plays my guy…
i bet we dont see thorman in the lineup tonight, but we could see a betemit sighting at the 1 spot. it sure would be a nice surprise to see a big change in the lineup
(like a renteria flip with giles, or a betemit at the 1 spot, or a betemit at 1st base, or a combo of all 3 with betemit leading off playing first, giles at 2nd, and renteria in at #7). why do you think hat a big move hasnt been made yet? we, on the board, have obviously seen a need for change, yet nothing. is it bobby’s stubbornness, chippers unwillingness to move, betemit’s not kissing enough ass…..i am running out. i just dont understand. were we waiting until rock bottom. well, its happened so what do we do from here?
Actually, that should read, “…and don’t listen to a word anybody says, especailly if they start with, ‘you should try…'”
Remember, the positive turn around. Still no takers on Sosa. Call a friend, adopt Sosa!
I posted about Sosa needed a good home over on Hawksquawk. They’re some of the most depressing, masochistic people around, so I’m sure someone will be over to pick up Sosa shortly 🙁 🙁 🙁
Lers try this lienup tonight
Betemit or Thorman
Giles
Renteria
McCann
C Jones
A Jones
Frenchy
Diaz
Sosa
Since there is a RHP I’ll predict
Giles
Renteria
C Jones
Jones
McCann
Frenchy
LaRoche
Thorman or Langy
Sosa
maybe Thorman sighting at 1st and Langy in LF
It won’t matter who bats where tonight. If everyone is adopted by a poster, then they should dominate.
My lineup:
My preferred lineup, with positions:
Betemit (3B)
Giles (2B)
Renteria (SS)
McCann (C)
C Jones (1B)
A Jones (CF)
Diaz (LF)
Sosa (P)
Frenchy (RF)
Since someone mentioned the coaches, I’ll go to work on Terry Pendleton. Clearly, he’s way too patient about teaching his hitters patience: he should be on their ass every time they swing and at a non-hanging breaking ball in a hitter’s count or pop up on the first pitch. So I’ll be on his ass every time any of those things happen, BEFORE he gets on their ass, to make sure he remembers.
Pretty soon Pete Orr, Marcus Giles, Andruw Jones, Jeff Francouer, and Adam LaRoche will be getting an earful every time they screw up at the plate–because if they don’t get an earful from TP, TP will get an earful of me.
And we all know he doesn’t want that.
Don’t worry about Frenchy, I adopted him. He will go 1-2 with two walks, a HR, and a grounder to second to get a runner to third.
Excuse me, the above post was actually made by me. I assumed Terrell Wade as my alter ego because I thought he could help our pitching woes. It was sort of a joke. The not-funny kind.
“Don’t worry about Frenchy, I adopted him. He will go 1-2 with two walks”
My brain just exploded.
Good jod Wade. Someone hurry and get Sosa. If you pick up Sosa, you get a translator also (you can pick a translator, I sugest Eric Estrada or Chuck Norris, Chuck can speak all languages. He is really fluent with a round house kick to the head)
I am interested in who Mac and Alex will adopt
I’ll take Ken Ray. I’ll make him go to sleep each night listening to a tape that subliminally repeats, “I am not Chris Reitsma,” over and over.
i like the positions zac, but i think pressuring mccann into the 4 spot would be a bad move. let him stay 5 and keep chip and druw where they have been. i, personally, would like to see bobby give giles a shot at the #2 position again for a couple of weeks. if he excels, leave him there. a renteria/giles swap, with betemit in between diaz and francoeur, with thor and laroche as our 1st options off of the bench, leaving pete orr to ONLY pinch run.
Really, the key to my lineup is that (assuming Giles would do better than he is now in the 2-hole), you have good OBP guys up top, then you have two random chances at power in the lower half (Druw and Frenchy). Putting the pitcher ahead of Frenchy is key because most of our pitchers probably have better OBP and SLG% than Frenchy, and when you have to pinch hit for them, you actually have someone on base.
Yeah I agree 100% on Renteria leading off with Giles 2nd. Leading off has really messed up Marcus’ approach leading to his crappy numbers. Renteria has led off for other teams before and his close to .400 obp is much better suited to the position.
What I’d do:
vs Righties
Renteria
Giles
C. Jones
A. Jones
McCann
LaRoche
Thorman
Langerhans
vs Lefties
Renteria
Giles
C. Jones
A. Jones
Diaz
Franceour
McCann
LaRoche
should I repost the rally cry on the new thread asn see if we can get the rest of the team adopted?
yes!
ok it is up!