ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Reds
The Braves jumped all over punching bag Ramon Ortiz for six runs in the first inning and a third, then coasted from there. There were a couple of shadows, though: Jorge Sosa’s control continues to be a problem, and Chipper left the game with an injury suffered on defense in the fourth. It is apparently “strained posterior rotator cuff” and he is day to day.
Before leaving, Chipper was 3-3 with a homer, a double, four RBI and two runs scored. McCann got a start and went 3-4 with a homer. Marcus was 3-5 but his hits were all singles so hardly count. The Braves emptied the bench, so by the end of the game Estrada was the only hitter who didn’t get in and Foster and Reitsma the only pitchers.
Sosa walked three and allowed six hits in five innings, but only one run, largely because the Reds kept bailing him out by doing things like hitting weak fly balls with the bases loaded and a 3-1 count. He was all over the place. Of his 97 pitches, 56 were strikes, but it seemed worse. I didn’t have any confidence until it was 9-1.
Boyer, McBride, Kolb, and Farnsworth pitched an inning apiece, each allowing a single. McBride was charged an unearned run pitching the eighth; he walked a guy but also struck out two. Farnsworth got his first Braves strikeout to end the game.
Natspos lost, Phillies lost, Marlins losing, Mets tied and rallying… Ramirez against Brandon Claussen tomorrow, on FSS as usual.
Boom-Boom gives up a solo shot to Jenkins to make it 8-7 Brewers. Memories.
Not going to worry too much about Sosa. As a pitcher it can be tough to stay focused when you are spotted a huge early lead. He got the outs when he need to.
I was just looking at tickets for an upcoming Braves game, and I was just wondering when terrace and field level seats went up an extra $10.
A little perspective. After 107 games last year, the Braves were 60-47 and had a 4.5 game lead over the Phils.
Unrelated, but I just saw that former Brave Jung Bong was arrested today for a “domestic violence incident.” It sounds like he and his wife had a fight and he tried to choke her. What is it about men?
This game was boring after about the 5th inning, but Sosa’s early antics more than compensated. His stuff is electric but he has no control. It’s OK to let the ball be put in play sometimes, Jorge, what do you think the 7 guys behind you are there for? Leo should straighten him out or we should dump him. Somehow he escapes without giving up runs most of the time, but as the Nats have showed us, luck eventually runs out.
“…luck eventually runs out.”
Just ask Damian Moss. BTW, where the hell is Moss these days? I remember that he landed w/ Seattle and was suspended for roids in April, but haven’t heard anything about him since.
We have so many parts we can trade this off-season, but what do we need? If we are set with Johnson and Francoeur in leftfield and rightfield with Reitsma being our closer, I don’t really see we need anything except for a Farnsworth-style of set-up guy. If we can actually resign Furcal and Farnsworth, we basically have no real need for this off-season.
SoT, I think Moss is with Tampa Bay. They basically have all the former Braves pitchers we dumped to other teams.
BREAKING NEWS: Palmeiro tested positive for stanozolol. An actual, serious steroid. This is not an accident. It’s taken orally or injected. Would this be accidentally contaminating a supplement? Please tell me yes, but I don’t think so.
What a cheating liar.
Moss is with the Mariners’ AAA team now. He has a 4.21 ERA and a typical IP/K/BB pattern — 104 2/3, 73, 63. He’ll probably get called up for their bullpen sometime.
I think Jung Bong was doomed to do stupid things when his parents named him JUNG BONG.
Just checked: stanozolol is not in supplements. This was not unintentional. It stays in your system for about a month, too, so who knows, he might have been taking it when he got his 3000th hit.
Sorry that I’m harping on this, but I’m just stunned and sick. I had one last little hope that he wasn’t lying despite what logic told me and it’s just been dashed. I need to vent.
Check the New York Times or ESPN if you want to read articles on it.
I looked it up and “Jung Bong” is actually Korean for “John Rocker”.
Actually, Mac, it’s Korean for “Kenny Rogers”. Interesting, eh?
Of course, Jung Bong could never be Korean for Bobby Cox. (Had to be said, sorry.)
Mets win on a walk off walk
There’s an ESPN story that Chipper hurt his shoulder in the game? Anyone?
Alex, I mentioned it in my game story!
Yeah, but who reads your game stories?
Alex, from this story:
Chipper’s body keeps falling apart. Someone mentioned somewhere that we can buy-out his contract after next season?
You’re crazy, kc. Why would the Braves buy out Chipper’s contract? If his body really is falling apart, the best thing to do would be to move him to a less taxing defensive position.
JoeyT, as you said, just a crazy idea. I think it would be a PR disaster. Just thought somebody mentioned it somewhere. Seriously though, if he gets hurt diving for a ball, he will get hurt playing first base.
I must say, I laughed at every mention of Jung Bong in this chat. Good work.
What do i need to do to email you i have a question for you but i can’t find a valid email addy anywhere on this site.
I didn’t have any confidence until it was 9-1.
That, I think, is because you are a negative nancy.
Leo should straighten him out or we should dump him
You people are incredulous. Yeah, he’s got a 5-1 record and 2.55 ERA as a starter. Clearly he should go. Ridiculous, that’s all I can say.
As we saw when Russ Ortiz was here, many of the posters here have no understanding of the concept of effectively wild. Sosa has been a savior for this pitching staff this year, yet a day doesn’t pass that someone doesn’t suggest trading him. Strange.
Yeah, Sosa is ok with me. He did lose his edge after getting a six run spot but isn’t that to be expected? Leverage in action (Kyle?).That said, Farnsworth looked like he is ready to throw for the Braves. A serious heater and changing speeds. Count me in!
nyb, I don’t think people have a problem understanding “effectively wild”. However, we all believe that so call “effectively wild” will not achieve consistent success in a long run. I don’t think many of us were ever impressed by Russ.
And jenny, a celebrity lied? Who’d have thunk it. Plausable deniablilty is s.o.p. for anyone accustomed to the spotlight. All of them are well-practiced liars, period.
Jenny, don’t be so surprised about the lying. After watching those congressional hearings, I think the only person who didn’t lie was Mark McGwire, which is ironic because he took the most heat just because he didn’t answer the questions. 🙂
Effectively wild? You mean like keeping them off-balance by putting them on base? Sneakliy throwing 100+ pitches to get through five innings in order to lull them to sleep? You have to give guys credit for managing to pitch around problems of their own creation, but it does catch up with them. Have a peak at how Russ Ortiz is doing… or Damian Moss. Maybe “effectively wild” is something pitchers can only be with the Braves. Sosa has managed to have a lot of success for us, and I still think he can be good (unlike Ortiz and Moss). You don’t have to like it when people say it’s all luck, but to say that his inability to throw strikes consistently contributes to his effectiveness is a little silly, isn’t it?
Forgive me creynolds, just to clarify, are you saying that the inability to throw strikes has nothing to do with effectiveness?
I guess we’re going to have to accept the fact that Sosa can pitch only five, maybe six, innings at most as a starter. If he moves to the bullpen, then that’s not as big a problem. Regardless of when he enters a game, he needs to simmer down and gain better command of his pitches.
Grissom was designated for assignment by the Giants. Would he be a worthy addition to the team?? Ah, remember the days of the ’95 series.
I don’t think that a general inability to throw strikes contributes in any positive way to a pitcher’s effectiveness, no. Sosa has a problem throwing strikes consistently when he wants to. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t walk so many people, right? I don’t think it’s part of his game plan to give up 5-6 walks every nine innings. He’s somehow been effective, though. I really don’t see why we can’t give him some credit for that. But, honestly, there’s nothing encouraging about that. It can’t last.
My email address is warliberal -at- yahoo -dot- com.
Distinction: Sosa is a hurler, not a pitcher/.
Ahhh, ok, that makes sense creynolds. When I first read your post I thought you meant inability to throw strikes had no bearing at all on effectiveness. I was ready to link you with that former poster who said wins were the only thing that counted for pitchers and call for a trade for Rick Ankiel. 🙂
I chalk it up to being pre-10 am and pre-caffeine. Sorry.
You can type before you have caffeine? I’m impressed. I can barely get one eye open before my first cup.
Completely unrelated, yet potentially encouraging general news: Mike Port (Red Sox Asst. GM) has been hired by MLB to be in charge of umpiring – part of Sandy Alderson’s former responsibilities. At least there’s someone in charge again… and now it’s a full time job. I hope it helps.
I know how you feel about The “S” word on this forum, so please feel free to strike this Mac if you see fit; but here is the most sensible, non- hysterical thing I’ve read about steroids this season.
Nice link, ASG. The ESPN talking heads were way over the line yesterday, starting with Mariotti and Wilbon on PTI (in the interest of my sanity, I didn’t watch Around the Horn for fear of breaking something valuable within reach while doing so).
Adam, I agree I think we may want to look at Grissom. He is one of Bobby Cox’s favorite players of all time. He would be a great fourth out fielder. Plus, he fits with this years team theme, “Local Boys Done Good.” I bet he ends up in Minnesota though.
Grissom’s line this year is: .212/.248/.285 w/ 2hr and 15rbi
Why send one of the rookies down in favor of this?
I would love to see Grissom comes back to platoon with KJ. I will take Grissom over Jordan any day. He is the kind of player you want on the bench as he has great postseason experience. Having Grissom and Franco on the bench during postseason will be great.
joshq, the Braves will not carry twelve pitchers in the playoff, so the position will be at the expense of our favorite Dan Kolb.
And that’s really the problem. He’d be a fine 5th OF for Atlanat, assuming he can still kill lefties and there were such a thing on this team. We don’t know for sure about the first (although he hasn’t been good this year), but we know that the second doesn’t exist. It would be nice if either the Braves would drop a pitcher OR he’d start in the minors and then be an option for the postseason roster, but that seems unlikely. If he can still play CF, I would imagine that the Twins and Yankees will offer him a much better chance at major league playing time (and I’m sure a few other teams would have some interest as well).
it’s time to give the kid some credit. he is now 7-1 in 10 starts and an incredible era. this guy has dynamite stuff, but lacks control. hell, he’s going to lack control considering he has only pitched a few years. if he is overachieving, then he has done it consistently. some people just overachieve in life (ask my girlfriend, whom i still don’t know why she chose me). he gets outs. and moss never had what this kid has.
Couple of items from the articles I’ve read on it: Palmeiro’s positive test was back in May, and he appealed it in June, which was denied. So he likely was not juicing on his final charge on 3000 hits (unless he is *really* stupid). This particular steroid is ingested or injected, so it’s possible he ingested it accidently, but the only way it could have been in a supplement was if it was tainted. The timing of the suspension is quite suspicious though, it appears as though MLB waited until after he got to 3000 hits before they suspended him. And with the 1-month pass through, unless he was using intentionally on a regular basis (which he seems to deny), it is unlikely he had taken it before his Congressional testimony, so no perjury.
2nd thing – Grissom has lost it, stick a fork in him. There is absolutely no reason that the Braves should pick this guy up unless one of the current outfielders gets injured in the next week or so. However, if he’s willing to sign a minor league contract until the rosters expand (and call him up right before to make him postseason-eligible), then I could see doing it to get a veteran bench player for the postseason. Otherwise, there is no way he should taking at-bats away from the kids, the way they are playing right now.
sorry, 7-1 is his overall record. forgive me
Grissom was hurt this year and I think may be part of the reason for the low average.
I’ve got no problem with Grissom as the 5th outfielder on an expanded roster and/or in the playoffs. I agree w/ creynolds that it may be best to start him in AAA until the roster’s expand, but if we did get him I doubt we’d do that.
IF he would do that, we must get him.
Over under on Jeff getting his first walk before his 100th at bat?
He has 54 AB’s right now. He did get hit by a pitch the other day, I always thought that should count as a base on ball. I say sometime this week he gets IBB with a runner on second and one out in like the 6th inning, so that a double play can be set up. They better make sure that they get the pitches way outside or Jeff may pull a Ted Williams and hit a double to right field!
I don’t even think jeff has watched a total of 4 pitches go by him in all his at bats combined.
Here is the real question:
How will they rank in home runs between Chipper, Jeff, Marcus, KJ, Langerhans?
my only question with that (smitty) is will chip play enough games to have a chance at 20 homers.
I say if we get a ten game lead we DL Chipper and let him heal. By the time he comes back and gets in a grove, it will be October and the WB, Marte, and Orr will all have had more valuable AB’s and the team will be ready for a deep post season run.
Maybe when Thompson comes back, we can do the same for Smoltz.
This will go down as one of the collossal failures in modern baseball when the Nats finish in last place, but many of the same people who jumped on their bandwagon are already saying they knew all along it couldn’t last.
They are 6-19 since the All-Star break. They have lost their last 11 one run games (they were 24-8 before then). In their last 15 games — of which they’ve lost 12 — never have they scored more than four runs. On Tuesday, Washington went 1-for-10 with runners in scoring position and left eight on base.
They’ll be 20 out by the end of the season and have 5,000 in the stands, most getting in with free tickets.
They are so desperate, they’re considering signing Brett Boone.
The Braves are 20-8 against the Central, but haven’t played the Cardinals and haven’t played the Astros since they woke up. They get the NL Worst at home over the next couple of weeks (except for the Rockies), then play the Cubs and Brewers before beating up the Nats at home to finish the month. It looks like the NL East could be settled by then.
The Nats front office just called to see if I would play infield for them. I said no
Grissom and Jordan could both be huge club house presences for the young team. Plenty of experience and I they act like they actually want to win, unlike some other veterans.
On steroids – the following article from slate.com (from 2003) is instructive – however much one is saddened or morally dejected thereby, it’s hard to blame ballplayers for taking something that would give them an edge that was prohibited neither by law nor by baseball’s rules.
Palmeiro may find out what Nixon, Clinton, and maybe Rove did/will: it’s not the initial offense, but the lies/ coverup, which bring one down.
On the playoffs: I hope we play the NL Worst in the first round, but I’m not comfortable enough with our lead to start rooting for the Marlins or Phils to overtake Houston. Anyone know where updated odds of making the playoffs could be found?
I don’t think Houston has the sticks to keep this up. They are not hitting well right now. One of their big three pitchers could go down soon too. This is not the same Houston team as last season. Berkman, Biggio, and Ensberg really aren’t that scary. I think we are a much better team than we were last year and they are not as good. We should have won last season anyways. Don’t forget they have Phil Garner and I am sure he will screw it up for them anyways.
Someone mentioned something about the timing of the Palmeiro announcement up above, I heard on the radio that perhaps the delay was due to MLB’s unwillingness to upstage the HOF inductions. Makes sense, even if it seems a little too media-savvy for Selig…
It might even be a little too media-savvy for Rufino Linares…
re Grissom and Jordan: Ironically, the veterans who most “act” as though they want to win would be those least able to contribute to victory.
Have a peak at how Russ Ortiz is doing… or Damian Moss.
This is the kind of thing I was talking about. Russ Ortiz had a streatch of six seasons where he was an effective valuable pitcher. Never missed a start, 200+ innings, better than league average ERA. Yet many people could never get past the fact that he walked people, and now claim victory because his arm finally fell off after years of being ridden hard by Dusty and Bobby. 95% of major league pitchers will never have the success Russ Ortiz has had, and yet you get stuff like “check out how Russ Ortiz is doing”. Here’s a dollar, buy a clue.
Damien Moss is a soft tossing lefty with a marginal stuff and a career K rate of 5.0 per 9 innings. Sosa is a hard throwing righty with electric stuff and a career K rate of 6.0 per 9 innings including 6.55 mark this year. There are no meaningful comparisons between the two.
So when he got older and after some heavy usage, his wildness ceased to be effective?
I’ve already stated that Ortiz (who was your example of “effective wildness”) and Sosa both deserve credit for the effectiveness. They’ve been effective because they have somehow managed to get other hitters out AFTER putting many on base but BEFORE they scored. Some will attribute that to luck. I think that plays a part, but there also may be a concentration piece of it that applies as well. Heck, maybe some guys are just better out of the stretch. I’m not sure. But you wanting to attribute that to their inability to throw strikes consistently is, well, clueless. Maybe you should keep your dollar.
But you wanting to attribute that to their inability to throw strikes consistently is, well, clueless
It gets stranger and stranger. You are acting as if I have invented the concept of “effectively wild” when in fact it has been an acknowledged phenomenon in baseball for like 100 years. There are countless examples of guys like this who have a tough time controlling their pitches but do alright because hitters can never really get comfortable against them. Mike Witt, Nolan Ryan, the immortal Mitch Williams, I could do this all day. The thing with these guys is that once the lose just a little of their stuff they fall off a cliff and that tends to happen earlier rather than later due to the high pitch counts they accumulate (Nolan Ryan obviously excepted).
Hitting is about timing and it’s tough to get your timing down when a guy is all over the place.
What’s so strange? I don’t think you invented it, I just think it’s wrong. So because other people believe it, I should too? Lots of people believe lots of things that neither you nor I will ever buy into. Effective, yet wild. Or wild, yet effective. That’s something I can believe. Effective because they have serious control problems? No, I’m not believing it.
Witt’s career dropped off when his strike out rate dropped off (well, after the year that his homer rate spiked and sent his ERA north of 4). His walk rate was always fairly consistent. Prior to that, I’m pretty sure he had a measurably better strike out rate than either Sosa or Ortiz.
Williams is flat-out impossible to figure out. I’ll give you that one. I don’t know what his deal was, but it’s not enough for me to support the idea that wildness can be effective over any meanginful amount of time.
Ryan did have something like a 3/1 K/BB ratio and struck out well over 1 batter per inning. When you’re striking out that many guys, you can afford to walk some folks. Again, I’m not sure how this is an example of his wildness being effective, but it really has little bearing on Ortiz or Sosa anyway. They don’t strike out guys with anything like the rate that Ryan did. Strikeouts may be fascist, but they’re awfully effective.
In 2004, Ortiz had 18 regular season starts for the Braves in which he gave up 4.5 BB/9 or more, and 16 starts in which he gave up less than that number. His ERA in the high-walk games was 6.25; in the low-walk games it was 2.39. He was effective when he could throw strikes, and not when he wasn’t. If there’s another way to look at this, please let me know.
How can you give up half a walk?