391 thoughts on “Fill-in open thread”

  1. Continuing from the last thread: my FJM experience was generally that Ken Tremendous was hilarious, while dak and Junior were really really hit or miss.

    That said, the site shut down two years ago, when (if anything) the amount of horrendous sports journalism flying everywhere across the web and airwaves was even worse. I don’t know that they made it better, but I think our collective intelligence has risen a few points.

  2. Greetings from Monaco…

    Y’know what? Nobody knows who Cam Newton is over here.

    It’s just guys wearing ascots & well-preserved ladies in leather trousers.

    C’est la vie & Go Dawgs.

  3. Other notable November 12 birthdays:

    Grace Kelly (the most beautiful woman in human history)
    Charles Manson
    Neil Young
    Sammy Sosa
    Nadia Comaneci

    Edit: Grace Kelly and Monaco references one minute apart! Congrats on the stunning locale, ububba….

  4. Rogers and a second person, Bill Bell, MSU former player and booster, went on the record yesterday that Cam’s dad asked for money.

    It will all be finished by the end of next week now, one way or the other.

  5. I guess time will tell, but was it wise of Jeffy to refuse the minor league assignment for the Rangers?

    Thought he had a shot to find a role there.

  6. My current Francoeur obsession is his middle name, “Braden”. If it’s a family name, I’m obviously in no position to complain, but if they just thought “Braden” would be a neat middle name, he and his parents must be mocked for it.

  7. Happy B-day, Sam.

    Weird on the Grace Kelly for sure.

    Yesterday, my cabbie pointed out where she wrecked. Pretty bad spot. They celebrate her death day here (Sep 14), not her birthday.

    But then again, a lotta stuff doesn’t make sense here.

  8. Princess Grace and author John Gardener (who wrote a wonderful book of literary criticism called “On Moral Fiction”) both died on the same day – Gardener on his motorcycle.

    I always thought of that day as the Day that Truth and Beauty Died.

  9. @15
    Where in the World Is…ububba?
    Knowing your appreciation of great entertainers, I wonder if any mention of Princess Grace’s friend Josephine Baker shows up?

  10. Just took an intro to Flash class from a guy named Braden.
    I have a cousin named Braden (Brady).
    A youngster in my Sunday School class is named Braiden.

    I must have a Braden gravitational pull or something.

  11. @1,


    The point is not that FJM was not funny, but where do you cross the line from satire into simple ridicule and cruelty? There is a tendency of sites like this to simply mock those that don’t see the world as they do. At some point, you need to grow up.

  12. Key quote

    A single season’s worth of numbers are not especially reliable, especially compared to offensive statistics. So take everything that follows with a rather large grain of salt.

    UZR had Cano as a negative number this year. That just ain’t so. My faith in defensive metrics is receding, not improving these days.

  13. Figured it’d be a longshot, but it would be nice if he could start to climb that PBP depth chart. Or it’d be really nice if he’d just come back to ATL.

  14. a talking chop blogger suggests he knows an mlb insider that says the braves are pushing hard for carlos beltran. would the mets be interested in a bad contract swap?

    mclouth and kawakami for beltran.

    would you guys do that?

  15. Did Beltran say yesterday that he would agree to a trade?

    Think he can still play center?

    He would start with Tehran.

  16. 32—Something involving Derek Lowe is a lot more realistic. That’s a trade that’s been suggested for a year or so, now.

  17. @32
    so, i’m irrational again? carlos beltran is owed 40 million dollars the next 2 years while nate and kk are owed about 15 million over 1 year. beltran, an elite player when healthy, hasnt been so in 2 years and will be 34 next year (he played 145 total games in ’09&’10).

    i know we’re really down on kawakami and mclouth, but their worth (combined) in 2009 exceeds beltran’s. beltran’s contract isn’t tradeable without taking on a bad contract. mclouth and kawakami might be worthwhile risks for the mets.

  18. Does Beltran playing only half a season the past two years equate to a full season this year?

    If I had to choose between overpaying Lowe to be alright for a full season or Beltran to be alright-pretty good for half of a season, I’m leaning towards Lowe.

    But then again it does take that much salary off the books that much sooner..

  19. so, i’ve realized the serious mistake in my rosterbation. i thought beltran was under contract for 2 more years at 20 million per year. yeah, my trade scenario is irrational exuberance.

  20. You guys are way overthinking this. Beltran didn’t miss parts of two seasons. He missed a year. What really happened is he got hurt in June of 2009 and wasn’t ready to come back until July of 2010, but the Stupid Mets tried to bring him back in September of 2009 for no good reason and extended the injury. Before his injury, he was one of the most durable players in the game, and he’s only 33. The Mets won’t trade him in the division, and he doesn’t want to play left (he’s willing to go to right) but if they offered him for Lowe and a prospect who isn’t Teheran, Delgado, or Freeman, you’d be insane to turn that down.

  21. The point is not that FJM was not funny, but where do you cross the line from satire into simple ridicule and cruelty? There is a tendency of sites like this to simply mock those that don’t see the world as they do. At some point, you need to grow up.

    Okay, but the site’s been closed for over two years. If you’re asking them to grow up, well… perhaps they have.

  22. braves could probably offer a B prospect and get Beltran + cash. Absolutely no chance he cost a top prospect, esp with him getting $18.5m next season. Id trade Lowe 2/30 for Beltran 1/$18.5 in a heartbeat

  23. November 12 is the day I made a major lifestyle change. I switched from iPhone to an Android phone and got the Samsung Captivate.

    I’ve had it for about 6 hours and it already blows the iPhone out of the water, imo. This is the only Android phone I’ve ever used, so I can’t compare it to other Android phones, but this is what I feel like the iPhone should have been. The screen is beautiful, first of all, and even with AT&T restrictions it feels much, much more open then the iPhone ever did.

    Not sure how many people are as obsessed with techs and gadgets as me, but I am in love with this phone. I feel like this kid right now:

  24. Gee, where’s all the chatter about the annual Clash of Titans (aka, Vandy v. UK)?

    Probably a separate thread that I missed …

    Go Cocks! (Don’t say that very often. For a variety of reasons.)

  25. i agree with the great reviews on the Samsung Captivate GalaxyS. never had an iphone but it smokes my old blackberry.

  26. I am about to get the Samsung Epic. It will be my first smartphone. I’m thrilled that Sprint is finally getting some good phones, because I love their service.

    Eephus League won best in show tonight! Thank you all for the advice you had during its creation.

  27. well Cecil Newton has now admitted to talking money with MSU. He’s trying to clear Cam’s name, but I dont see how this would help.

    not good IMO

  28. @57 Ugh. So not good.

    The Architecture Dean was at the show and said he knows an AU booster who says that Auburn is in the clear and isn’t getting in trouble. We’ll see.

  29. most Auburn fans are excited on rivals forums. Saying Cam knew nothing and therefore he cant be punished by the NCAA. Cecil denied talking money figures with Auburn. Then again he has denied everything up to this point

  30. Apparently we brought in some depth to our coaching and professional staff:

    ATLANTA — The Atlanta Braves have added former managers Lee Elia and Dave Trembley to their baseball operations staff.

    The 73-year-old Elia has been in baseball more than 50 years, including stints as manager of the Chicago Cubs and Philadelphia Phillies in the 1980s. He will be a special assistant to Braves general manager Frank Wren, working as an instructor in the majors and minor leagues.

    The 59-year-old Trembley was manager of the Baltimore Orioles from 2007 through this past June. The Braves hired him as their minor league field coordinator.

    Atlanta also announced the hiring of longtime scout Bob Johnson as a special assistant to the GM, focusing on major league advance scouting.

  31. @5 1

    I dunno the exact name, but I think Samsung has at least one GalaxyS phone for every carrier. Though AT&T has the worst lineup of Android phones, so if the Verizon equivalent isn’t that great then you have a lot of other options too. I hear the HTC phones are pretty nice.

    Also, the Swype text input system is brilliant. And a little scary, because it’s like my phone knows exactly what I’m thinking.

  32. Back to Beltran.

    Is it just wishful thinking?

    And, am I just remembering his highlights – because in my mind he sure does solve a lot of problems for us.

  33. most Auburn fans are excited on rivals forums. Saying Cam knew nothing and therefore he cant be punished by the NCAA.

    Yeah, that’s the ticket. It will take some stones to go all in and actually play this kid today. But I have no doubt that Auburn is up to it. Just when I’d thought we’d come up with every last way of screwing over the non-BCS teams, here comes a new one. A team willingly playing an ineligible player to maintain their spot ahead of have-nots.

  34. @62 I think Beltran would be a more likely option if he wasn’t already in our division, and I’m pretty sure the mets would have to eat a good bit of the contract for us to afford it. I guess if we were able to dump McLouth or KK, but I’m not sure that would happen.

  35. I was going to upgrade my iPhone 3G to a 4 next week but Downeaster’s post is making me reconsider…

    I’ve loved my iPhone but, like any piece of technology, it’s really slowed down in the last 2.5 years or so and it couldn’t handle the OS upgrade. I figured the 4 would be everything I liked about 3G and then some, but I honestly don’t know how it compares to the Droid and HTC.

  36. I would at least go to an AT&T store and check out the Captivate. I wasn’t upgrading from an iPhone 4, so this is mostly based on the Captivate over the iPhone 3G. I do have friends with an iPhone 4 though and I’ve played around with it. It’s certainly a lot nicer than the 3Gs, it’s mostly glass and metal so it feels really nice and sturdy in your hand whereas the Captivate is a little bigger and has a large plastic back so I always feel like I’m about to drop it and break it. But it’s still an Apple product, and as such you’re basically at the whim of Lord Steve Voldemort.

    The iPhone 4 is nice, and if you’re upgrading from a 3G then you’ll basically know pretty much exactly how to operate the 4 as well. The Captivate does (and is still) taking some getting used to, because it doesn’t have the single Home button along the bottom. It does have A home button though, along with a Back button, a Search button, and a context sensitive Menu button all along the bottom. It also has a very nice “notification bar” at the top. If you get an email, text, download finish, etc., you get a little notification at the top and you can then pull down the notification bar, hit the message, reply, and then hit the back button and be right back where you where – surfing the internet, using an app, etc. You don’t have to load the message, then hit the home key, then go back to the app or browser you were using.

    In the end though, for me, it came down to “can I really get behind the idea of letting a guy whose wardrobe consists entirely of black turtlenecks and slacks telling me what I can and can’t do with my phone?” Google created a mobile OS that is just as great as Apple’s, and then they said “Here, now do what you want with it.” Of course, Apple and AT&T are basically in bed with each other, so AT&T DOES lock down the one feature that really sets Android apart from the iPhone OS – the ability to support third party apps not from the Android market. There’s a workaround for it, but it’s kind of technical and AT&T is the only carrier that does it in the first place, and there’s really no reason for it other than “Hey look at us expressing our corporate power over you! How’s that two year contract taste now, bitch?” At least the Android phone gives me the ability to fight back or subvert the rules, should I want to do so. The iPhone does not.

    Oh and the Pandora widget on Android is great. You can run it in the background first of all, which seals the deal for me right there. But it also creates a little movable “widget bar” where you can control it without actually having to load the app up completely.

    [/sales pitch]

  37. I really can’t fathom why Canizares has never even sniffed a chance at a bench job after his 2007 season. He’s a righty too. They don’t do ml splits on B/R but I’d bet they are significant.

  38. Mac:
    Just a little tidbit, there was a little stretch on Wikipedia a long time ago when I used to edit there about whether Jeffy’s middle name was “Braden” or “Brandon.” I emailed Francoeur’s website, and the girl running it said she would actually check with Jeff and get back to me. Her answer: “Jeff emailed me and said his middle name is Brandon.” You can Google the results on each construct. MLB used to have Brandon showcased, but now they seem to have middle names removed. Brandon or Braden? I think Francoeur owes the American people, at the very least, a scanned copy of his birth certificate posted on his site. Otherwise, everything he does as a ballplayer is illegitimate. But, then again, Jeffy isn’t a legitimate ballplayer anyway, ha ha.

  39. “We’ve had a number of discussions over the last couple of weeks,” Braves general manager Frank Wren said on Friday. “I’ll leave it at that.”

    Is it just me, or has every utterance from Cox and Wren regarding KK over the last few months carried a whiff of distaste?

  40. I for one would like to know just what Kawakami did to become so disliked by the organization. I mean he wasn’t great, but it’s not like he was terrible for a fifth starter either. Surely the organization isn’t putting that much stock into his win loss record? Are they that upset over his refusing the minor league assignment earlier?

    Maybe he said something he shouldn’t have. In Japanese.

  41. This is a business, not mom’s kitchen. I don’t feel like Kawakami did anything to piss anyone off. It’s just the nature of the personnel dealings in the game.

  42. @72, there has definitely been a difference in tone regarding KK. He didn’t get any of the rah-rah treatment other guys did when he was struggling. There is clearly some animosity. I’m not laying blame – I have no idea what transpired here – but to say otherwise is just disingenuous at this point.

  43. Couple of interesting decisions by the Wisconsin coach this year. Against Minnesota a few weeks ago he went for two while up 25 with six minutes left. Today they scored on a misdirection play in the last two minutes to make the final score Wisconsin 83, Indiana 20.

  44. Auburn was apparently sentenced by the NCAA to give Georgia two touchdowns.

    Jesus farking christ they can’t even get out of their own way on offense so far.

  45. 75–It was all backups by then. That said, Wisconsin started their backup running back… and still put up 83 points.

    I do remember thinking the 2-point conversion against Minnesota was egregious.

  46. Ryan Ludwick is probably the ideal type of player for the Braves to add if they can do it on the cheap. He’s got two seasons of pretty mediocre play following a great season and a really good one. The chance that he bounces back is worth a one year deal at $3-5 million, but I wouldn’t go more than that. At the same time, I don’t think you’d want to count on him 100% to be your LF. If you sign him, you’ve got to have some kind of backup option available.

  47. Looks like Auburn will get a solid win out of what should have been a total ***-kicking. I’ll take it.

  48. Best news I’ve heard today: There’s serious mutual interest between VU and both Tommy Bowden and Tommy Tuberville. I’d take either and be elated.

  49. I bet Tuberville can’t get out of Lubbock fast enough.

    I also bet that Texas Tech fans rue the day they felt it necessary to bow down to Craig James spoiled son.

  50. uggla is now apparently on the market and the braves are interested. if we pull it off, i guess he’d stay at 2nd and prado would move to left. i absolutely love the idea of uggla a brave.

  51. Uggla doesn’t get to play the IF if we trade for him. Prado’s turned into a decent fielder there, which Uggla will never be.

    On the Florida/USC game, wow, what an ugly performance. Sure, I thought the Refs dropped the ball on a couple of obvious calls, but it’s not like it would’ve mattered. Florida had no presence up front on either side of the ball. The offensive play-calling was pathetic. The defense couldn’t get a stop on 3rd down to save their lives/season. That opening drive in the 3rd quarter is, IMO, what really sealed it. There were two third-and-longs that South Carolina converted, and that really broke Florida’s back. It also bugged me that Lattimore got like 1/3 of his yards on that stupid counter play. They ran it twice to the left, once to the right, and each time was a big gain, including either a TD or a first down.

    But overall it was the offence that lost the game for Florida. South Carolina’s defensive line just owned them up front. There was no forward push at all, and this was especially evident when Florida decided to run straight up the middle consecutively on 3rd- and then 4th-and-short only to turn the ball over. (Which really begs the question, why, when you’re line is getting crushed, do you call straight-ahead runs at that point in the game?)

    Overall, a game South Carolina really deserved to win. They completely outplayed Florida in all phases of the game except, I guess, kick-offs. And once they started kicking away from Debose, South Carolina didn’t really give up much there, either. GL vs. Auburn in Atlanta!

  52. uggla’s never played outfield. prado plays OF every winter and bobby discussed the possibility of moving him there more than once.

    and, if it’s true that it takes at least 3 years for UZR/150 to stabilize, then uggla has been a better defender than prado over his career.

    if the braves were ballsy, they could shop prado. he’s probably at peak value right now. my heart would hurt, but it would heal.

  53. Prado has improved his fielding an awful lot since becoming a regular so I don’t think that’s a fair comparison.

    Uggla would be an interesting backup option for 3rd if Chipper doesn’t make it back.

  54. 106—It would be incredibly stupid to move Prado to make room for one year of Dan Uggla. I don’t love the Uggla idea, at all, for the same reason I don’t love the Willingham idea — I think we’d be forced to give up too much for a one-year rental.

  55. according to Rosenthal, most of the teams talking to the Fish about Uggla are interested in playing him at 3B…i wonder if we’re in that boat.
    from what ive seen of Uggla he’d be servicable in LF.

  56. The nice thing about acquiring Uggla would be that if we don’t get Diaz back, Uggla fixes the problem of needing a righty to fill his void.

  57. ryan, I disagree. The Braves cant sacrifice their best RH hitter while trying to add offense. Moving Prado in order to obtain Uggla and a higher salary doesnt make sense.

    uggla – .287/.349/.508
    prado – .307/.350/.459

    Plus Uggla would want a 5yr deal after next season. If Chip was retiring and we could move either Prado or Uggla to 3rd then it would make some sense. Braves need to move pitching for offense

  58. I’m with Stu. Ugla would just be a one year rental before he becomes and Angel or Red Sox DH.

    Plus, the Marlins wouldn’t trade us Commando Cody before they GAVE him to the Giants.

    So I imagine they would want Heyward and Freeman, that’s how crazy the Marlins are.

  59. Purely hypothetical question, with no specific player or team in mind: if a trade for a very good, young, cost-controlled outfielder was offered, with the asking price of McCann and a lower level prospect or two…do you even consider it? Would a year of Ross as everyday catcher be remotely acceptable? Or would it be complete blasphemy to even give a second thought to such a trade?

  60. @115 – so, let’s say Rasmus for McCann was offered – McCann is 3/26 left on his deal, Rasmus is controlled through 2014.

    Positional scarcity for both guys, a bit less at CF, but the money evens that out.

    It would be very hard to say no to that, just because catchers traditionally do not age well and are a higher injury risk, but wow, that is an extreme challenge trade. I probably wouldn’t take it, but that is a toughie.

  61. McCann is a once-in-a-generation kind of player. You just can’t trade a guy like that unless you’re getting the world in return.

  62. @117, I’d take it. McCann’s my favorite player, but objectively, it’s a good deal. It’s shocking that McCann hasn’t really had knee problems yet, and who knows if new managers will manage his workload as well as Bobby. We have good catching prospects in the system, and we have a starting-caliber one on the team right now. It makes sense in the short-term and the long-term.

  63. I just re-read that post on Kawakami by Bowman and he wrote that the Braves didn’t even include him in the traveling party to San Fransisco–they told him he was free to go home to Japan at the end of the regular season .

    Ice cold.

  64. Damn. You guys are cold. I’m still bummed we gave Murphy away to another family and didn’t just let him die peaceful at home.

    I’m admittedly over-sentimental about such stuff, but I think McCann’s reached untouchable Brave for life status. Unless he leaves us for some guy with more money I say we don’t look at the other pretty girls.

    It’s disturbing to me that I have so many metaphors for abandonment.

  65. McCann is not a once-in-a-generation player. He’s never been the best catcher in baseball since he came up, and at this point, it’s not clear that he’s the second-best either. He’s an extremely good player. He should be an All-Star for much of his career, and if he plays long enough, he’s got a shot at being a HoFer. But he’s not once-in-a-generation. Alber Pujols is a once-in-a-generation type player.

  66. McCann isn’t a once-in-a-generation player, but he’s a once-in-a-generation player for your team. Durable, 5-time All Star (or, if you prefer, McCann hasn’t had a season in which he has not been an all-star) catchers are pretty rare beings, and teams don’t often get them. I personally believe that he has more value than Rasmus.

    Of course, this is when Peter steps in and does one of his trade value things and tells us what is what.

  67. @122 When are you going to find the number 2 player at his position (and I’m not sure I agree with you that he’s never been the top catcher), playing for your team, with a favorable contract? Almost never.

  68. There are 3 HOF catchers post 1960, 13 total of 202 HoF members. It’s the lowest position total. By definition, a HOF catcher is a “generational” player.

  69. Plus, trading from a weakness to fill a weakness doesn’t exactly make sense. Its not like McCann is only going to be around for another year or two, so trading him for a long term solution doesn’t really help.

  70. I really don’t think the existence of Joe Mauer should be used as a reason to downplay McCann’s ability.

    Beyond the Box Score had him as saving 3.1 runs defensively over the season.

  71. If anything, it’s easier to develop a franchise center fielder than a franchise catcher. The Braves have certainly had more great center fielders than great catchers in their long franchise history. McCann is a far, far, far scarcer good than Rasmus. And he’s a top-3 catcher in baseball; Rasmus is not a top-3 center fielder.

    I love Rasmus, but it should take more than him to get McCann. McCann is that good. (Also, they have All-Star catcher Yadi Molina, which means they won’t be interested in our All-Star MVP catcher.)

  72. I think that if you’re the best 3 at your position in baseball (and have consistently been for the last five years), you are a superstar.

    Jets barely beat Cleveland in OT.
    Baltimore loses to Atlanta.
    NE embarrassing Pittsburgh.
    Dallas bests the Giants.

    Uhhh…. Atlanta Falcons, best team in the NFL at the end of week 10?

  73. @131

    I think they are in the top three and they have an argument for being number one. Going into today this is how I would have ranked them:


    Trading McCann would be dumb unless we got Posey and Timmy Lincicum

  74. Smitty,

    I think that you have to put the Bucs above the Pitt. Coach Morris knows what he’s talking about.

    I would hope that the Braves would do a Posey-McCann straight swap. We need Brian Sabean to start smoking weed with Lincecum more often.

  75. The inability of HoF voters to adjust properly for position when electing players to the HoF does not mean that any catcher who should be in the Hall is a “one in a generation” player. Just look at what the phrase means. It means, essentially, “best player at his position over a 12-20 year period”, or at least that’s what I’m taking it to mean. McCann is a lot of things, but he is simply not this.

    I’m a huge Brian McCann fan and frankly, he’s one of the most underrated players in MLB right now. I mean, he’s an elite player! He’s just not a once-in-a-generation talent.

  76. My updated SEC bowl projections:

    MNC Game: Auburn (13-0)
    Sugar: Arkansas (10-2)
    Capital One: LSU (10-2)
    Cotton: Alabama (9-3)
    Outback: South Carolina (9-4)
    Peach: Mississippi State (8-4)
    Gator: Florida (7-5)
    Music City: Georgia (6-6)
    Liberty: Tennessee (6-6)
    Birmingham: Kentucky (6-6)

  77. @135, I think you are vastly underestimating how few catchers hit like McCann. The number of 26yo catchers with a 5+ years of 122OPS+ is a damn short one. Heck, the number of catchers all time with a 122OPS+ and 5+ years of service time ain’t gonna be very long. I don’t know how to run reports on B-R.com, but I am willing to be humbled here.

  78. Complete list of players with at least a 120 OPS+ through their age 26 season. Minimum 2000 PA’s, minimum 50% games played at C.

    1. Joe Mauer – 136
    2. Joe Torre – 131
    3. Johnny Bench – 130
    4. Yogi Berra – 124
    5. Brian McCann – 122
    6. Bill Dickey – 122
    7. Jason Kendall – 121
    8. Thurman Munson – 121

  79. OPS+ leaders, +50% games at catcher, first through seventh seasons, 2000 min PA:

    Piazza 160
    Mauer 136
    Tenace 134
    Torre 132
    Schang 131
    Fisk 130
    Bench 128
    Campanella 128
    Dietz 127
    Berra 127
    Romano 124
    Cochrane 124
    Hoiles 123
    Dickey 123
    McCann, Hartnett, Meyers 122

    McCann’s first six seasons are extremely similar to Gabby Hartnett.

  80. braves14 @136 – I think you’re right.

    It gets more interesting if Bama beats Auburn.

    And, dammit, Smitty – Stu and I want to know why you guys always figure it out right before you play Vandy and UK!

  81. @143,

    That is how General Neyland wanted it.

    If Vandy didn’t have so many injuries, I would be a lot more worried. Kentucky scares me too.

    I think Bray is due to come down to earth some. He is throwing a lot of balls into coverage that receivers are coming down with.

    braves 14:
    If Tennessee gets to 6-6 they will go to the Music City Bowl over UGA.

  82. Agree with the comments about McCann. Very good player; he may even be a HOFer, but not once in a generation. Piazza was a once in a generation player (despite his fielding); Bench was a once in a generation player. McCann is a very good player but not once in a generation. Having said that, as someone else said, it’s much more difficult to develop a top-flight catcher than a centerfielder so I don’t see how you trade McCann for Rasmus.

  83. DOB latest tweet…

    Uggla would fit what #Braves’ Wren said about getting creative in pursuit of big bat. If Chipper healthy, Uggla would play 2B, Prado LF? 9 mins ago

  84. @142- Every one of those guys is significantly better defensively than McCann is.

    I don’t see why we have to try to make him into a player of Albert Pujols’s caliber. As great of a player as he is, he’s just not that.

  85. Trade McCann? C’mon…

    Get Uggla? Another infield butcher?

    Yes, beyond Cam-Gate, the sports world is a little slow these days.

    Guess I better make that shaky climb onto the Falcons bandwagon. ATL-Jets Super Bowl, anyone?

  86. I like the idea of uggla, but it certainly isn’t perfect. He’d make a lot more sense next year, huh?

    He’d make diaz an obvious non-tender. Maybe he can fit as rh caddy for freeman. And as chipper insurance, he could make infante expendable in a deal for a cf. Does infante + diaz = uggla, salary-wise? Roughly?

    But uggla to left does make us better than last year. I just wonder if it makes as good as we could be next year, if that money and those prospects went elsewhere. If we do have to use him at 3b for any stretch, we’re back to the lf blackhole.

    So I guess if you’re going to count “chipper insurance” on the pro’s list, you almost make mandatory an infante-for-cf trade. Or some facsimile.



    new cf

    hard to hit Heyward so low, and tough to split Heyward, mccann and freeman without batting gonzalez way too high… unless you move chipper out of the three hole… guess it depends on handedness and offensive skills of in coming cf.

  87. @151, How the heck do you know whether Bill Dickey, Dick Dietz or Joe Torre was “significantly better defensively” that Brian McCann?

  88. Well, if you can put Melky and Hinske in left on a consistent basis and make the playoffs, Uggla in left couldn’t be too bad.

    And he’s Chipper insurance.

    And he allows us to trade Infante (if we must).

    And he breaks up that McCann / Freeman / Heyward lefty glut.

    A one-year rental is not all that appealing but that’s kinda the way of the world these days.

    I think Heyward at the 2-spot is a bad idea. Chipper has become a better candidate for that role, imo.


    Meh. Back end of the order scares me but …

    They’d have to give us Pujols for me to be ok with trading McCann. (Still think we should give Brian some work at 1B, though.)

  89. via dob tweet: “Uggla would fit what #Braves’ Wren said about getting creative in pursuit of big bat. If Chipper healthy, Uggla would play 2B, Prado LF?”

  90. Dan Persa is the best QB in the Big 10.

    #157 Gonzo.

    Uggla for a year? Sure, the only answer is for whom?

    Trade McCann? for Albert Pujols.

  91. I absolutely hate the idea of moving Prado to left to accommodate Dan freaking Uggla.

    159—I’m guessing he got snooty with his cats, and they turned on him.

  92. I’d consider Uggla for left field, but that’s about it, and there’s really no indication that he can actually play left. And considering the way his contract negotiations are going in Miami, I doubt I want to pay what he thinks he’s worth. He’s one of the best-hitting second basemen of the past 30 years, but we already have one of the better second basemen around, who is cheap and team-controlled for years.

    That’s why I’d much rather target a guy that other teams don’t want: Ellsbury, Rasmus, Kemp. Hell, we could probably get Cameron for free from the Sox, if he were actually healthy. I’d take Bay if the Mets threw in a bunch of money.

  93. As somebody who has done a fair bit of writing, and more than a fair bit of study on the subject (though you wouldn’t know it from the way I post on here), sometimes you read something that makes you realize you’re never going to be ‘that good’ (for me the prime example is To Kill a Mockingbird, though John Green’s YA books are also pretty humbling if you want a more “current” example). But then some times you find out about a book that makes you wonder why you’re not further in a writing career if “insert schlub here” can do it; books like Pam Anderson’s or “reality TV” stars penning something. My initial thought when I saw that this book even exists was that it would fall into category #2… but I’m not sure it says anything except that publishers will buy anything if you have a built in market. Maybe I missed a discussion already, but apparently last spring “The Batting Stance Guy” put out a book:

  94. why is it not taken into consideration that uggla will probably be a type A free agent after 2011, therefore providing 2 first round draft picks?

    also, uggla had a 5.1 WAR this year. that would have ranked him 2nd on the braves this year only behind brian mccann’s 5.3.

    one complete unknown would obviously be uggla, or presumably, prado’s left field defense. it’s apparent that neither prado or uggla are stellar with the glove at 2nd (however, prado is improving with years), but would their defense be any worse than, say magglio ordonez? i obviously dont know, but i cant imagine that it would be.

    so, my conclusion: 10 million dollars + top prospect other than teheran for uggla with, presumably, 2 first rounders coming back in 2011, and prado moving to left field for a year. i’m in! bring dan uggla, his iron glove, and his 30 homeruns to the middle of this lh heavy lineup.

  95. Why do you not think that’s being taken into consideration?

    I could be OK with Uggla in left, depending on what it takes to get him. I would not be in favor of Uggla at second and Prado in left.

  96. @166

    Uncle Kracker is the musical version of that phenomenon, at least for me. I can’t play any instruments, but I can hardly see why that matters? We’re talking Uncle Kracker here.

  97. @168
    well, i havent seen anyone bring it up and the braves blogging world that we live in seems set on keeping every prospect in the organization even if it means we’ll have a pitching logjam until next century.

  98. Well, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I prefer not to trade valuable prospects for someone like Uggla because of my desire to trade them for someone better (like Rasmus or even Upton), not just to hang onto them.

  99. I’d rather have an outfielder rather than trying to convert a bad infielder to an outfielder.

    Someone mentioned Ryan Ludwick. I had read an interview with the Pads GM where he said that they wanted to keep him. But if he is non tendered then the Braves should be dialing his agent.

  100. @171
    fair enough. but the price for rasmus would start with teheran. upton might be had for cheaper, but the rays still value him a ton.

  101. #172 – they did say that, but then they traded for Maybin.

    I keep thinking I wouldnt mind Ludwick and Upton, but check out their splits vs LH’rs. We might as well set our sights a little higher. Id want Uggla, but only after confirmation that Chipper isnt going to return next season. We dont need more OF expirements. However, some have said that Prado is a decent LF’r. I just dont want Uggla, AAG, and Chipper handling our groundball specialist

  102. actually, I looked at Upton’s splits wrong. He did hit lefties very well last season, it was 09 where he posted .190/.302/.270.

  103. uggla ranked 4th in WAR for 2nd baseman last year. prado and infante came in at 6th and 7th. if he were a left fielder and put up the same stats, he would have been 4th as well. if all nl OFs are factored in, he would have ranked 6th.

    remind me again why acquiring uggla would be a bad move?

  104. @180 – a reasonable and persuasive argument for the negative.

    If he were a free agent, sure.

    But if Chipper doesn’t or can’t come back, we’re gonna wish we had found a way.

  105. Double whammy ROYs for Braves fans: Posey (20 first place votes to Heyward’s 9) in the NL, Feliz in the AL

  106. Between the incompetence of umpires and writers, I’m developing a hatred for Buster Posey, and he’s done nothing wrong.

    Still, it’s a very real hatred.

  107. Peter’s precise analysis is very convincing. I feel that the Braves analysis will consiste of ‘we need a right handed outfield bat’. In the end money and who the Marlins want in return will scuttle any deal with Florida.

    #175 Not sure how acquiring Maybin influences the Pads decision on Ludwick. Maybin is a CF, Ludwick is a RF. But hey if they non tender Ludwick because they think Maybin is the answer I’m all for it.

  108. I actually don’t have a problem with Posey winning ROY. Their hitting numbers are pretty similar, and Posey plays a tougher position. Clearly Heyward got more PT, and that should count in his favor, but Posey had a very good year.

    Don’t get me wrong, Hewyard is still the better player going forward, but that’s more of an age thing.

  109. @180
    i’m having the same discussion over there, so that doesnt really help me. i’m obviously in the minority, but i dont see another player via free agent (that we can afford) or trade market that can put up the numbers uggla can. if the price doesnt include teheran, i’m still in.

  110. 190—I wasn’t responding to you. I was just posting Peter’s latest. Sorry for the confusion. But, happily enough, it did do a nice job of “remind[ing you] again why acquiring Uggla would be a bad move.”

    Anyway, I’m with Johnny in that I don’t think there’s going to be a match. I mean, we couldn’t even get Cody Ross from the Marlins.

    189—A month of Posey’s already-inferior playing time was at first base.

  111. I may be in the minority here, but part of me doesn’t mind when our guys lose the big awards simply because it offers them less leverage in the salary department. Maybe a backwards way of thinking of it but I’ve always let that help ease my disappointment when we feel one of ours got screwed out of an award. I’m sure it amounts to nothing most of the time however we do give a lot of awards clauses so that’s real money.

  112. It’s not like I actively root against our guys winning awards, but that first arb hearing could be impacted by such things as a ROY award.

  113. Wow, people @180 are saying Burrell is a better pickup than Uggla? No way. We missed our opening of getting Burrell, he’s too old at this point.

  114. I really really really really really really really hope that Heyward is signed to a long-term contract before his first arb hearing.

    Also, Bethany, I didn’t get a chance to say it earlier, but congrats again on the Eephus League. It’s gorgeous.

  115. @198 That is great motivation to simply ignore these things. I’m sure people vote for the HoF in the same ridiculous manner.

    Thank you, Alex!

  116. Uggla would have to play LF–or we could just move Prado there and have the defense be even worse than it was last year. But whomever moves, their value would be hurt a lot, especially when we take defense into account.

    Burrell would be a better pickup than Uggla in a terms of value: he would cost less and could be signed without sacrificing any prospects. Personally, I’d rather have Maggs, but I’m firmly on the “No to Uggla” wagon.

  117. Part of me wishes that KK did say or do something to upset the organization and earn the ire that he has. The whole “it’s a business, not a love-in” angle is inapplicable in this case, imo. KK was the same pitcher this year as he was last year, but the team just didn’t show up when it was his day on the calendar. Yet KK is the bad player in all of this? He’s no CC Sabathia or Roy Halladay, but nobody was asking and/or expecting him to be.

    So, if all of this stuff with KK is just because of his W-L record, then I’d be severely disappointed in the FO. I’d hoped they would be smarter and above the whole “well he’s a gamer who knows how to win” attitude, but seeing as how everybody was on the verge of blowing Alex Gonzalez for being a “gamer”, I guess not.

    Disgusting. BTW I hate Alex Gonzalez. Kawakami should assassinate him before being sent back to Japan.

    AAG sucks.


    That’s the attitude that gets us stuck with Ache and/or platoons in LF every year. Everybody is looking for some imaginary player who is good on offense, a great defender, and cheap as well.

    But then by the time all is said and done, we get saddled with someone who is only 1 out of those 3 – Cheap.

    I’m not saying “yes” to Uggla, but I think people are overvaluing LF defense too much given how desperately we need offense.

    Plus, Prado plays the OF in winter ball, so it’s not like it would be an entirely new experience to him.

  118. Wow, anyone thinking Jose Tabata and Neil Walker deserved ROY over Heyward is bat@#$%-crazy. I can see the argument for Posey and even Garcia (though I disagree with both strongly), but Walker AND Tabata?!?

  119. The amount of money WASTED in the Kawakami fiasco is a pretty huge indictment of Wren. We ain’t talkin’ Troy Glaus “what the hell” money.

    When Frank Wren blows one, he really blows one. Oy.

  120. Heyward 5.0WAR
    Posey 3.9WAR

    AJAX 3.8WAR
    Feliz 1.9WAR

    any 20yr old rookie putting up a .400OBP is deserving. Screw these folks. Hopefully gives Heyward some incentive to put up even more ridiculous numbers next season

  121. #205 -context. Take into account the roster at the time of the signing, the market for pitchers at the time of the signing and what was expected of KK over all. Yeah, it didn’t work out but I wouldn’t consider signing Kawakami a fiasco. Kawakami has clearly angered the organization. We may never find out why but its clear that the only Brave he is going to be is a Mississippi Brave. Reading a lot between the lines you get the feeling that KK simply refused to do something that Bobby asked him to do or raised a stink about it. Like pitching out of the bullpen. You get the sense that KK is used to being treated like a star when you read things from Peanut or DOB. Just didn’t work out. Everyone makes a bad acquisition every now and then.

  122. 198 — That guy doesn’t deserve to vote if he completely overlooked/forgot Heyward, which is the only logical explanation.

  123. I think those votes are ones where they’re voting for the #1 spot, and the other two votes are “giving the local team some love” sort of thing…

  124. Who cares who wins the awards? But it certainly doesn’t make baseball look good when you see voters shamelessly manipulating their ballots. If Jason uses it for motivation fine, but in ten years no one will even remember he didn’t win ROY. And it’s not like he lost to a bum.

  125. @207,

    It’s stories like these (and movies about the financial meltdown and the money that people made for running companies into the ground and destroying peoples’ lives)that make me less upset about the money that players make. Whatever you think about A-Rod, he didn’t take food off some working guy’s table.

  126. Here guys, this should make it all better.

    It’s seems to me that his rationale is that: Posey deserved to win, and while bringing that about, he could also get some pub for the guys he covered on a daily basis. Professional.

  127. OK, guys – I need some help. I’m an idea guy, not a finance guy so I’d appreciate some advice on how to protect myself.

    I have an idea how to add $100 million annually to Home Depot’s or Lowe’s top line. I can prove it and implement it.

    What’s the best approach?


  128. Catch your superior in a moment of weakness and then destroy him while he’s vulnerable, thus proving you are the stronger one.

    Wait.. that’s how to become a Sith master. Nevermind.

  129. I heard the Yankees were only going offer Jeter 4 years 60 MM. It’s an insult to all true Americans for any baseball player to make more than Jeter

  130. Well, the Redskins put themselves over a barrel because they have no one else to play quarterback and the owner could not accept building with a young guy. It doesn’t really matter anyway because as long as the O-line is as bad as it is,and the receivers as mediocre as they are, a combination of Unitas/Montana/Brady couldn’t win with this team. Arguably, since it’s only money, you might as well let the veteran take the hits.

    And, frankly, Shanahan introduced a dark undercurrent in this town by benching McNabb for, basically, not being smart enough to learn the offense. I’m sure that’s not what he was thinking, but, given the history of the team, and the Rush Limbaugh take on McNabb, there is a definitely some bad vibes about this here.

  131. I wonder what the Pitt. writer would suggest the Pirates do if the Braves offered Heyward for both Tabata and Walker straight up. Of course he and any other schmo would take it and laugh all the way home. I know the ROY is not a career expectations award, but of course Heyward easily out-classed both in 2010 as well.

  132. Thing is, Kovacevic is right: Walker and Tabata both had fantastic years. I don’t believe in using your votes to grandstand, but plenty of people do, and so Kovacevic got his point across. Neil Walker and Jose Tabata were really good this year, vastly exceeding expectations on a Pirates team that once again went nowhere.

    But awards are just awards. Jason had one of the best seasons any 20 year old has ever had, and there’s more where that came from. I’m looking forward to complaining about all the Heyward MVPs that Jason will get robbed of.

  133. AAR, if that’s the case, then why bother having the award at all? If voters aren’t going to try and list the three best rookies, then it’s meaningless.

  134. If he had said, “Walker and Tabata both had fantastic years,” he’d be right. But he voted them 2nd and 3rd in RoY voting, which is not right. Objectively.

  135. Neil Walker had a very good year. Tabata’s was mediocre. He probably wouldn’t rank in my top 10.

  136. It was more than mediocre. He stole 19 bases, played average defense, and got on base on a better-than-league average clip. It was a very decent year. He didn’t deserve to win any awards, but he was a deserving starting outfielder, which is a hell of a lot more than we had in left or center field this year.

    Of course, considering that he’s older than he says he is, this might be as good as it gets. But even still, a league-average left fielder shouldn’t be pooh-poohed, even if putting him second on the ROY ballot is freaking nuts.

  137. So now there’s great concern that Dez Bryant lost a diamond earring on the field DURING THE GAME.

    I am just too damn old.

  138. I read that somebody thought that Chipper was denied a rightful ROY award. I think that Hideo Nomo was by and far better than any other rookie that year, with 5.0 WAR to Chipper’s 2.5 WAR and Jason Isringhausen’s 3.0 WAR.

  139. Desert, even at the time there was little question that Nomo turned in the better year (you compare pitcher and positional WAR at your peril, however). He led the league in K’s and had 13 wins. The issue was whether Nomo, after 5 NPB seasons. was even deserving of rookie consideration – I think Joe Morgan said something about not getting his vote if you hadn’t been riding buses in the minors for a few years.

  140. Spike,

    Thank you for pointing that out, now I see. I’m sure many others have had a much deeper conversation about this topic than I will ever consider having, but when we talk about the NPB, we consider it equivalent to Triple-A or the fictional Quadruple-A league, but never at the level of the majors. In Nomo’s case, this was the first time he was consistently facing hitters of the highest caliber. That makes him a rookie, and in my (a person whose childhood hero was Chipper Jones and who emulated his stance and position all the way through senior year of high school), a better candidate for the award than Chipper.

    Also, I have to disagree with everything Joe Morgan says.

  141. I’m happy for the guy but do in fact harbor resentment as a Falcons fan. It’s a complicated sentiment, but then, I’m a complicated guy.

  142. @241:

    Japanese pro players still ride buses and stay in (relatively) cheap hotels. It’s not really a glamorous life.

  143. I love me some Justin Upton, but he took a step backward last year after a fairly brilliant 2009, and his extreme propensity to strike out is awfully worrisome. I would love to see if we could get him after a down year, but Teheran, Minor, and Kimbrel is too high a price, and not remotely worth it to the Braves.

    Also, we already have a right fielder. Unless the Braves feel either Heyward or Upton is a legitimate CF — and considering the way they’ve treated Heyward, I’m guessing they don’t see him that way — we’d have to shift one of them to left, which significantly diminishes their value on our club, despite what we’d have to pay to get Justin.

  144. There is no way in hell I would trade Teheran for anyone. Wait, I may trade Teheran for Heyward…but hey, we have both of them!!!

    Three pitchers for a hitter? We have done that with Tex, we have done that with Drew, and there were both disasters.

  145. @237

    I didn’t know there were people around, particularly Braves fans, who don’t think Chipper got robbed. Funny little world.

  146. As amazing as Justin Upton and Jason Heyward would look together in a lineup; and, my goodness, would that be great, that’s a trade that Wren should not make.

    I believe that Justin Upton is, at some point in his career, going to be a superstar and one of the premier outfielders in the game. But I highly doubt that its going to happen until he figures out his contact issues, which is not going to happen next year. If scouting can be believed and the hype is true, in about a year’s time, I really believe that Teheran by himself could fetch Justin Upton plus more in a trade. I’m not saying that Teheran is going to better in a year than Upton, and neither am I saying that one is going to have a better career. But if he does again what he has done this year, Teheran is going to have significantly higher trade value next offseason.

    This is without even considering the addition of Minor, who could be a legitimate frontline (not ace-quality) starter, or Kimbrel, who has already shown signs of dominance.

    I think that this package could easily get Upton. But Frank Wren shouldn’t make such a trade. I think that a deal of Jurrjens/Vizcaino or Delgado/Kimbrel would be a much better proposal from our side and could save us a lot of headache down the line.

  147. If you follow Joe Morgan’s logic, he wouldn’t have voted for Bob Horner or Dave Winfield, both of whom went to the majors from college and, therefore, never rode buses in the minors.

    But, of course, expecting logic from Joe Morgan is a mistake.

  148. Looks like the Marlins want a young catcher and pitcher for Ugla. Beachy and that young catching prospect I can’t think of his name, would that do it?

    I wouldn’t mind that, but I wouldn’t give them much more for him.

    I bet Ugla goes to the Cardinals.

  149. My son was about 10 when the Vick dog-fighting news became public enough for a ten-year-old to hear and understand.

    His room was strewn with Vick posters. His prize possession was his Vick jersey.

    Without us discussing the issue and without a word from him, I watched him take down those Vick posters.

    You can imagine how I feel about Mike Vick.

  150. Beachy and that young catching prospect I can’t think of his name, would that do it?

    The Braves would be very stupid to do that, unless you’re talking about Sammons, and not Bethancourt.

  151. I was thinking Sweet Jesus, but Sammons would be better.

    Really, Beachy should be enough for 1 year of Uggla.

    For Justin Upton, I would center a trade around Delgado, but pieces two and three would not be both Minor and Kimbrel. Delgado, Beachy, Dunn?

  152. Marlins apparently are trying to get John Buck. Im sure that would change what they are seeking in an Uggla deal

  153. Bethancourt doesn’t seem like that great of a prospect to me. He seems like an all hype guy, and the Braves already have a pretty good catcher AND a good backup as well.

    If anybody in the system is expendable, it should be bethancourt, imo.

  154. Hmmm apparently Morosi thinks we should be at the front of the line on Upton… I’m not so sure considering his contract (’11 & ’12 are relatively affordable, but ’13 is $10M and ’14 & ’15 are both at nearly $15M each).

  155. 271—Well, so far, yeah. But Braves’ scouts, who know a thing or two, still believe in him. The point is, Beachy has value, and so does Bethancourt, and Uggla is barely worth his contract — why would you trade both of those guys for him? I wouldn’t.

  156. Prado
    Justin Upton

    I could live with that. Is Upton capable of playing CF? or just a corner?

  157. So is Lincecum really a contender at all for the Cy Young today? Mlb.com and ESPN keep talking about him as a possible upset over Halladay and Wainwright. I think it’s pretty clear that Lincecum didn’t have anywhere near the season they did.

  158. @AAR Admittedly, after McLouth I’m a little jumpy on getting guys from another team just as their contracts start to get pricier… but the combo of prospects they would apparently want AND the money for Upton worries me.

    Obviously his defense would be better, but his OPS was only .007 higher than Hinske (his OPS+ actually lagged Hinske by a couple points, I assume due to park factors)… giving up prospects and paying him a pretty penny in a couple years would certainly give me pause.

    to CSG’s question, if he can play center then it becomes a much happier possibility.

  159. Bethancourt is very young, several years younger than most of his competition in the Sally. He has time to improve his offense, like Andrus did.

    And, he has a plus-plus arm.

    His ETA for MLB is far enough off that he cannot be labeled as expendable, even considering the presence of B-Mac.

    I would not trade him for one year of Uggla.

  160. If Upton is out there, that changes a lot of things. I would think he passes Rasmus as the #1 most wanted target.

    He would cost a lot.

  161. Smitty, I assumed left too… and Upton only had an ops of .799 last year, which isn’t bad, but you’d be committing to him at $50M through ’15… I’d think Rasmus would still be a preferable, though almost certainly less likely, option.

  162. Again I’d rather have a real outfielder but,
    Bethancourt and Beachy for Uggla? You bet your ass you make that trade.

    You guys not only have Next Adam Wainwright Syndrome but you’ve contracted a mild case of He may be the next Brian McCann disease as well.

    Again if given the choice of having Bethancourt, Delgado, Teheran in the minors and achieving 3rd place in the NL East or giving one of these guys up for the last piece and playing championship baseball, I’ll take the latter.

    You simply have to give something to get something. The old days of getting McGriff for a bunch of never will be(s) is over.

    Of course the caveat is that Uggla will simply cost too much this year so it will not happen, count it.

  163. Uggla is simply not contractually the kind of player the Braves should pursue unless they get him at a great price, which ain’t happening. Giving up something of value for a year of a guy that you aren’t even sure where he’ll play, and with the certain knowledge he is going to be here for just a year is crazy. The only players they should be considering are arb guys or good 2+ year contract guys. Yes they cost more in talent, but less in dollars, but that is regrettably where the Liberty ownership has the team for the forseeable.

  164. are there ever deals that happen where guys with large salaries would be free throw-ins? such as:

    d’backs get:
    jair jurrjens
    brandon beachy
    free nate mclouth

    braves get:
    justin upton

  165. csg, yeah… I’m not saying I would HATE getting him or anything, but I worry for three reasons (though I’m not sure I remember which three they are… maybe it’s 4)

    A) he regressed a bit this year, may have been due to surgery and he may bounce back, but no guarantees.

    B) the cost in terms of dollars in a couple years (do we want him making up such a large chunk of salary in the years we’ll be facing arb for Hanson, Heyward, etc?)… he’s locked up for a few years, but not necessarily at a hugely team friendly rate for the last three years of his contract (though it will be in the years when Chipper & Lowe’s contracts are off the books I think).

    C) The cost in prospects to get him… if he can’t play center we still have to address that in a year when McLouth comes off his contract, and if we’ve given up our trade chips…

    D) Arizona output… I worry about a guy coming from Arizona where there SEEMS to maybe be a power thing happening of some sort… Some guys seem to hit better there, though Upton’s Home/Away splits the last couple years haven’t been too different (and the park factor has it as a hitter’s park, but not hugely so).

  166. @289 Now I’d do that in an instant, but I’m not sure the Diamondbacks do. Didn’t they demolish their team this year to shed payroll?

  167. Johnny – Your last statement is pretty much the point. We would be taking on $10M for our 1 year of Uggla, and a player who does not quite fit our needs. That costs us our trade pieces and a potential free agent signing. Why is that worth a future Major League catcher and a ML starting pitcher?

    You overestimate Uggla’s surplus value.

    I think you will find that many on here aren’t so afraid to trade prospects as they are afraid to waste prospects on the wrong guy.

  168. I’m not saying we should turn Bethancourt for Uggla, because Uggla specifically is too hard to make fit for the assumed price (although I wouldn’t be opposed to adding him at a reasonable price). I just think that holding on to Bethancourt because he may be the next Mccann is a little ridiculous when you already have someone who is actually McCann.

    You just can’t keep holding on to guys and waiting for an opportunity to fleece someone

  169. I think you will find that many on here aren’t so afraid to trade prospects as they are afraid to waste prospects on the wrong guy.

    Bingo. It’s all about not wasting value, whether it’s on-the-field value or trade value. The right to pay Dan Uggla $10 million dollars and watch him leave town after a year — yes, the draft picks would make up for a little bit — is not worth two top-200 (at least) kind of prospects, IMO.

  170. I just think that holding on to Bethancourt because he may be the next Mccann is a little ridiculous when you already have someone who is actually McCann.

    You just can’t keep holding on to guys and waiting for an opportunity to fleece someone

    Oh, so you’re arguing against a hypothetical argument which hasn’t been made? Well…OK.

  171. Justin Upton is good, man. Teheran, Kimbrel and Minor is too much, but to me the money is not an issue. He “regressed” at age 23 with a shoulder injury.

  172. How long has it been since the Braves got someone like Upton? Liberty won’t pay the money; it will be Pat Burrell or someone like that.


  173. I wasn’t “arguing” anything other than what I perceive to be the expendability of Bethancourt.

  174. It seemed like you were arguing, when you called a proposal, “ridiculous.” But, since you’re the creator of the proposal, like I said…OK.

  175. I was simply clarifying my initial stance on Bethancourt and then making an additional point about holding onto him. It wasn’t directed at anyone, so you can stop feeling personally attacked.

    Thanks for putting me in my place though Stu. The world is a better place for your efforts.

  176. I wonder how Huddy would have done had he pitched well in those two 6 run starts in September…

    Hmmm… if he’d given up only 2 runs in each of those and won one of them… a line of 18-8 and era of 2.51 would have probably only bumped him up to 3rd place anyway.

  177. Delgado, Beachy and Bethancourt for J. Upton. D’Backs probably would want Kimbrel instead of Beachy, but I’d still do it.

    Upton has the potential to be other-worldly good and the McLouth comparisons are way off. McLouth parlayed a hot start to a season into a nice contract for himself and was never really that good. Upton put up a .900 OPS as a 21 year old and was always a top prospect, if anything we’d be buying low.

  178. To be clear I wasn’t comparing him to McLouth, or implying that his “regress” this year was like McLouth’s, just saying that because of McLouth I worry about picking up a guy with a heftily rising contract when we’ve no indication that we’ll be ready to spend more on salary than we do now… though his contract would go up to almost $15M/yr just as Chipper & Lowe’s come off the books, we’ll also have several other young guys and their arb/1st contract money to contend with in those years. Maybe that’s worrying too far out into the future.

  179. I’d imagine the Diamondbacks would want at least one of the guys they got back to be an actual MLB player (meaning someone who had actually played in MLB, not just someone MLB-ready).

    Someone like JJ?

    Towers asked for Hanson for Peavy, would he ask the same for Upton? Does that become too much?

  180. Hanson is even more untouchable now that he’s proven himself at the Majors than he was then, in my opinion. The problem with JJ is that demand for him is probably at an all time low.

  181. @299 – I agree that it’s been a long time since we spent much on a big time outfielder like Upton. There is no guarantee that the Braves will treat things differently now, but I believe they’re very different.

    In the past few years management has viewed Chipper as the centerpiece of our lineup (rightly or wrongly) and we’ve tried to fit the pieces around him. At this point, Chipper is not only not the centerpiece, but no one really knows if he’ll be effective an entire season – his power is an even bigger concern. We have to look at anything we get from Chipper as a bonus. For our power bats, that leaves us McCann (great hitter, but he can’t do it alone), Heyward in his 2nd year (great potential but we won’t put too much on him yet), and Freeman as a rookie.

    Given the factors above, Wren’s gotta’ understand that things are much different this time. If he can’t pull off a big trade for an upper tier power hitter, we’ll be rolling the dice with our hitting, similar to what we did with our pitching a few years ago.

  182. I think Wren desperately needs to add a good if not great OF’r this offseason. His other OF expirements havent panned out.

    He did a great job in rebuilding the pitching staff and keeping our top prospects. He just needs to use some of them to upgrade the offense now

  183. Also, FWIW, McNabb’s guaranteed money is only $3.5 M, not $40M, as was previously reported.

    That’s too bad — I was enjoying thinking that Daniel Snyder had found an entirely new level of f***ing up.

    Can you imagine being a Redskins fan at RFK last night around the end of the first quarter, fresh with the news that McNabb was guaranteed $40 million?

  184. should the braves hold onto JJ until next offseason? If they keep him I guess they stash Beachy/Minor back in AAA for another year and then put Medlen back into the bullpen when he’s ready. Seems like we’ll have a very big surplus next offseason

    Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, JJ, Medlen, Minor, Beachy, Teheran, Delgado

    someone has to get moved

  185. @313, I certainly agree, but risk aversion is a powerful force in corporate governance. A guy like Wren could easily come to the conclusion he will be just as well rewarded for not making a mistake as for doing something to improve things. It’s the same rationale that drove people to buy IBM and save their ace reliever for the 9th regardless of score. I could easily see Wren going .500 next season and keeping things the way they are with no penalty. After hearing about the Tex trade ad nauseum during the WS, he may judge the cost of failure in making such a move too high to risk. Unless/until the benchmark for ownership clearly becomes championships rather than profitability (a perfectly rational mindset for a company I might add), what’s the point?

  186. Last night really wasn’t really McNabb’s fault, but it is questionable whether it makes sense to give a long-term deal to a 33-year old QB when it’s going to take several years for the rest of the team to catch up. But, if his guaranteed money is small, there’s no real downside.



    I hope you are right.

  187. If Upton can be had for only pitching, I’m in. It seems like everyone is after hitting, and we need all the depth we have.

    I think a package for him has to include Teheran, or Kimbrel, or Jurrjens. I don’t think ‘Vizcaino instead of Teheran, and Venters instead of Kimbrel” flies. Teheran, Venters, and more. Or Vizcaino, Kimbrel and more. I don’t know if they are close enough to winning to be interested in Jurrjens, but if they like him, maybe it’s Mike Dunn and a slightly better ‘and more’ than the other two deals.

    Also, I think Braves fans value Brandon Beachy a whole lot more than anyone in an MLB front office does. Beachy has zero-pedigree, and I don’t think he’s as valuable in trade as Mike Minor until he does to the National League the same thing he did to the International League.

  188. Is Matt Young another Gregor Blanco? Seems like the dude knows how to get on base. You would think the org would take a good look at someone who walks more than he K’s. Esp when he’s consistently posting a .400OBP and stealing 40+ bases

  189. considering two of Beachy’s three starts came against Philly, I think he had to open some eyes of scouts and other GM’s

  190. It is exciting to look at a list of potential starters like Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, JJ, Medlen, Minor, Beachy, Teheran, Delgado, and Vizcaino.

    But that can sure thin out in a hurry. Keep in mind that Lowe will be moved at the drop of a hat if someone say’s they’re willing to pay him. You can easily imagine JJ being moved for a hitter, since he’s such an attractive piece, and we value him less than Hanson. Medlen is out for ’11, and Teheran, Delgado and Vizcaino should be ’12 or ’13 additions.

    One can easily imagine a situation where we have our two right-handed outfielders, and a rotation that includes BOTH Minor and Beachy.. That kind of scares me. You might even see us in the market for a free agent number 5 type, back to kicking the tires on the Randy Wolf’s of the world. Boy, won’t that be a drag? Unless Javy Vazquez comes back for cheap just to get a little more of whatever Roger McDowell was cooking for him.

  191. if anyone cares…

    DOB…. don’t think you grasp just how special a prospect Teheran is. You’re talking about a pitcher projected to be a bonafide top-of-rotation starting pitcher for many years to come. He’s going to be rated the No. 1 or No. 2 pitching prospect in baseball for next season, one of the top-five overall prospects, probably.

    They are not trading him. You don’t trade a potential 20-game winner for a “20/20 guy with + defense.” In the game today, most teams wouldn’t consider trading a pitching prospect as elite as Teheran.

    By the way, people keep talking about what a great club-friendly contract J. Upton has. Granted, it’s a good one for clubs, as long as he plays like he doesn’t regress any more than he did last season. But he’s owed $49.5 million over next five years in that backloaded six-year deal. It’s not like he’s cheap. Three of those years would’ve been arb years, so the deal was beneficial for both sides, with Upton trading potential to make more in first free-agent years for all the security that comes with a deal as big as that (much bigger, in terms of guaranteed dollars, than McCann’s was).

  192. Kyle Davies mlb debut was like 5 2/3 shutout innings against the Red Sox in Fenway. Ken Kawakami beat Roy Halladay.. Two decent starts against Philly doesn’t make up for being completely unheard of prior to this season.

  193. @320, Chris Resop heartily agrees.

    @322, “stock has risen” and “not a top rated prospect” are not mutually exclusive terms.

  194. #325, 326…very true

    but I would also think that 119IP 1.73ERA 1.00WHIP 28BB 148K will get some attention

  195. There is no question that Beachy has less value than Minor: Minor has better pedigree, better minor league numbers, and a higher ceiling, not to mention that amazing 13-K start. Minor’s seen as a #2/#3, while Beachy’s seen as a #4.

  196. I think Matt Young is a good option for a bench spot, if the club believes he can play some 2b. I don’t know how long that experiment went on last season.

  197. AAR, I was simply responding non-specifically to all the trade proposals I read that contain Beachy. Not saying I do or don’t believe in him, or that I think he has the same value as Minor. Just saying that I don’t think Brandon Beachy will be the piece that gets ANY deal done, and I think a lot Braves fans think ‘minor league starting pitcher who’s close to mlb ready. Teams gotta love that!’ when in reality, for most teams, he’s just another guy to compete in spring training for their 5 spot, just like he would be for us.

  198. I’m really worried about Wren acquiring Delmon Young. I have a really strong gut feeling that it’s going to happen.

  199. It sounds like he’s not a very good guy. Bad defense, bad work ethic. I mean he’s 24 and physically he looks like Garret Anderson circa last year, I really don’t want any more lazy outfielders on this team. Which reminds me, most Yankees fans I know attribute Robinson Cano’s MVP caliber season to the fact that his best friend Melky Cabrera had been shipped out of town.

  200. Young sucks, but I’d try him if he’s cheap. I’d feel a lot more comfortable trying to acquire him if we still had Bobby, though. Bobby was usually a sure hand with young players who had a semi-troubled reputation. I don’t know that Fredi would be as likely to straighten him out.

  201. 306—Can you read? I’m skeptical. For the third time: You shot down an idea that you presented. I have no idea how that’s supposed to leave me feeling personally attacked. So…I don’t. OK?

  202. Corpas was released, any interest? He’d come cheap I think (still due $3.75 from COL) but has been pretty lousy the last three years, hard to know how much of an effect Coors played.

  203. I don’t know why you would feel personally attacked, because nothing I said was directed toward you. That was the point. Can you read?

  204. Do we get Uggla as a one-year rental or with an extension? Is Infante and Dunn worth one year of Uggla?

  205. If we did get done, I think it would be imperative that Wren tried to extend his contract, but I’ve heard Uggla is expecting the world with his next deal.

  206. Yeah, Infante and Dunn’s worth one year of Uggla. Uggla can fill in 2B/3B like Infante, and Dunn can’t find the strike zone. Infante’s been wonderful for us, but he’s the kind of bench part that Wren has actually been good at finding. Uggla has the kind of bat that Wren has not been good at finding.

    On the other hand, it’s Rosenthal, so… somehow I doubt that actually happens.

  207. Well, it’s only one year of Infante. Yeah, that’d be worth it. (The one drawback, in my mind, is that getting rid of Dunn probably means we “have to” keep Venters, whom I view as a centerpiece to any workable deal for a Rasmus, Upton, or Kemp. I know that’s convoluted thinking, but still.)

    I think we should go after the Upton brothers, though. It works quite well as a foundational, franchise-building move on MLB Front Office Manager 2009 for the XBox 360, where you can get Justin for Stenchy and Mike Gonzalez, and you can get B.J. (along with Evan Longoria and David Price) for Huddy, Jurrjens, and Kelly Johnson.

  208. That’s a no brainer, however it looks like a limited hangout. There would have to be a Teheran, Delgado or Minor in the mix here. I mean Uggla is a pretty hot commodity. Would a good utility infielder in a walk year that makes actual money (I know he’s a bargain, but we’re talking about the Marlins here) and a lefty reliever with upside who isn’t as promising or established as J Venters and has the same amount of team control be enough for the guy who seems like the leader of the Marlins? I think they’ll want one of our young guns. I mean their window is probably about two years away, making Omar Infante worthless to them and lefty relievers are important in the NL East, but so are infielders who can hit 30 dongs.

  209. if Uggla only cost Infante and Dunn, you’d still have plenty of pieces to get a Rasmus/Kemp/BJ Upton player

  210. Both Bowman and DOB are saying it’s close. I’m nervously wondering what the third piece from the Braves is.

  211. Theta no way the Marlins even ask for Terehan or Minor for Uggla. Not if they ever want to be taken seriously by other GMs.

  212. Yeah, it makes sense to use the extra LOOGY to upgrade a position. I like this trade, assuming the third piece isn’t terribly valuable.

  213. Prado in LF then?

    I like the bat, but it’s not looking like the defense will be any better this year. Still, for scraps (which is what Dunn and 1 year of Omar consists of) its probably better to just pull the trigger and let the pieces sort themselves out later.

  214. “#Braves appear to very close to nearing deal for Dan Uggla.”

    I’m approaching almost understanding what that means.

    I can’t wait until they’re actually nearing a deal.

  215. Yeah I’m not sure why you would move Prado when Uggla is such a notorious butcher in the field. He can’t be any less mobile than Hinske.

  216. Holy cow. Crasnick says it’s complete. Just those two.

    That’s an incredible deal. They were demanding more than that for Cody Ross.

  217. One thing I’d like about this deal is that it seems like Uggla has a good relationship with Fredi. I’m basing this solely on the fact that both Uggla and Fredi had issues with Han Ram. This could help with two things:

    A.Uggla being willing to move to left, in fact it’s possible that him and Fredi have discussed it.
    B.Uggla Extending

  218. holy crap…thats it???

    we still can go get a kemp/rasmus/upton and put nate on the bench

    nicely done Frank

  219. The deal is a no-brainer. I’m a little shocked thats all they want back, especially to deal within the division.
    We lived through Chip in LF, how bad can Uggla be?

  220. Damn. So we’re sitting here?:

    1. Prado (R)
    2. Heyward (L)
    3. Chipper (S)
    4. Uggla (R)
    5. McCann (L)
    6. McLouth – (L)
    7. Gonzalez (R)
    8. Freeman (L)

  221. 369-

    That would balance the lineup better, but I don’t see how the guy who (presumably) will have 33% more HR’s than anyone else not hitting cleanup

  222. It’s a good trade, but not an all timer. Uggla’s going to be way more expensive than Infante. I guess we had salary room, and the Marlins can’t stand spending any money ever. If you look at the difference between Infante’s salary and value, then look at the difference between what Uggla will probably get in salary and his value, the Marlins are probably getting a better deal.

    I like it because it means the Braves are optimistic about their ability to contend next year.

  223. What makes this a really good deal is that unless Uggla completely tanks, we get high draft picks next year when he leaves for a big money team. Those picks alone are probably worth the added salary.

    I guess the Marlins ownership is really trying to clamp down on ever paying a player money. This is not a good deal for them.

  224. What are the chances Freeman is the centerpiece of a deal for an outfielder and Mr. Chipper Jones moves to 1st?

  225. It would be pretty great to be able to sign him long term. Then Prado becomes your 3b after Chipper, and that’s a much better scenario than most I could think of.

  226. Copied from ESPN (last year’s salary numbers). Hanley needs to watch his back.

    1 Dan Uggla 7,800,000
    2 Hanley Ramirez 7,000,000
    3 Josh Johnson 3,750,000
    4 Leo Nunez 2,000,000
    5 Will Ohman 1,350,000
    6 Anibal Sanchez 1,250,000
    7 Wes Helms 950,000
    8 Chad Tracy 900,000
    9 Jose Veras 550,000
    10 Clay Hensley 425,000
    11 Emilio Bonifacio 420,000
    Chris Volstad 420,000
    13 Brian Sanches 412,500
    14 Burke Badenhop 407,500
    15 Cameron Maybin 405,000
    16 Gaby Sanchez 401,000

  227. Infante might be like the third highest paid player on the Marlins. Crazy.

    He’ll probably end up being fourth. Sanchez will probably be paid more than him next year. That’s still insane.

  228. I like the trade.

    I got a feeling Prado is going to see alot of time at the corner IF spots with all the uncertainity regarding Chippers knee and Freeman being a rookie.

    I think it is a good move.

  229. Marlins ownership is full of high fives because they have an All-Star second baseman for $2.5 million.

    Braves front office is full of high fives because they have a discounted awesome RH bat.

    High fives all around. We have a better team. They spend less money.

  230. This is quite the surprising trade to me. I’m pretty excited about having Uggla hit homers with Braves on the bases.

    As sad as we can be about losing Infante, we have to remember that there’s a real possibility that he’ll regress to a season of hitting like utility man-Omar rather than All Star-Omar.

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