Had his most plate appearances since 2003, and put up his best rate stats since his MVP season. Actually, since offensive levels are slightly down since 1999, his adjusted rate stats were very nearly equal — his OPS+ of 166 was just two points lower. His .337 batting average was a career high, and he just missed the batting title. Has still never led the league in an official stat, but his OPS, OPS+, and Offensive Winning Percentage were best in the NL. In other words, he was the best hitter in the league, if you ignore that he missed 29 games.
Some thought he should have won the Gold Glove; I didn’t, but he was much improved and would have been a better pick than David Wright. He’s a far better third baseman than he was before his exile in the outfield, which is odd when you think about it. His range isn’t great, but he doesn’t make many errors… 5 of 6 on stolen base attempts, now 18 of 21 over the last four years. Hit four triples and 42 doubles, the latter a career high. Not bad for a guy with bad legs.
Passed Murphy on the franchise home run list last year, and now holds virtually every important Atlanta career hitting record. Fourteen homers short of 400, one RBI and four runs short of 1300. 31 games away from passing Murphy for the Atlanta record for games played, third on the franchise list. 89 RBI behind Mathews for second on the franchise list behind the all-time MLB leader. Six triples behind Garr for the Atlanta record.
His most-similar hitter (through Age 35), as for most of his career, is Gary Sheffield. His most-similar retired hitter is Duke Snider, and his list includes three other Hall of Famers (Billy Williams, Schmidt, and Reggie) and five guys who aren’t yet eligible. He in fact has similar career statistics to the final stats of three Hall of Famers, Snider, Chuck Klein, and Johnny Mize. A batting title would have come in handy come voting time, though.
Everyone who would have predicted a couple of years ago that Chipper would be the best offensive player per at-bat in the NL in 2007 raise your hand.
Please stay healthy! Please stay healthy! Please stay healthy! Please stay healthy!
Maybe missing all those games has helped him stay strong when he does play. The only thing Chippers needs is to improve his right-handed hitting. Of course, we all agree with those brilliant venters on the AJC that the Braves would be better off if they got rid of Chipper and brought back Ken Oberkfell. 🙂
The Twins probably would prefer to trade Santana out of the AL so conceivably they would take less from an NL team.
UGA fans must have gotten a lot worse in the last 25 years. I don’t remember that much rowdiness at games when I was there. Of course, they didn’t play night games then, so that probably makes a difference.
i’m guessing he won’t play any innings at SS again this year. just a guess. if we had the illustrious willie harris to take over at 3B, might be a different story. heh heh.
having two of the most productive switch hitters going 3-4 in the lineup is awesome. can’t wait to watch. even if it means i’ll have to pay to watch a tiny little screen on my laptop.
When your team statistical position puts you right around Eddie Mathews and only below Hank Aaron, then I think that is how you spell “Hall of Fame.”
Jacobs Field to become ‘Progressive Field’.
I’m sure Chief Wahoo would agree.
Chipper should be a cinch hall of famer, though as Mac notes, his lack of black ink will be a small obstacle. His patience in drawing walks is probably the main reason he won’t reach 3000 hits, though it’s not completely out of the question.
I keep reading about how so many voters want Jim Rice in because he was so “feared” as a hitter. I don’t know how true that was at the time, but it’s certainly true of Larry Wayne, just ask any Mets fan.
Tied with mathews in career OPS+, though Chipper’s will go down as he declines. Still, nice place to be.
Maybe Chipper getting snubbed by the voters and giving the lesser defensive player and division rival David Wright, the gold glove, will fire Chipper up and give him the push to have his best season in 5 years.
I think not having Andruw kill 3 months worth of potential rallies in the middle of the order might also enable to allow Chipper to see hittable pitches again.
“Going Progressive” isn’t nearly as cool a euphamism for home run as “Going Jake.”
A bit off topic, but I just read that the Marlins hitting coach is Jim Presley. Well, I guess they wont be an offensive force this season……
Compare Chipper to all other switch hitters who have played the game, and he is a sure-fire Hall of Famer. That’s not to say he is the greatest switch hitter, just pointing out he is definately in the top of that class. Also, knowing how many 3B are in the Hall (not many) will definately help his chances.
I think Chipper is sure to get HOF support from the SABR-crowd, but ask Tim Raines how much that is worth. He will need to boost the counting numbers quite a bit to convince other voters. I think the general impression of him outside of Atlanta will be: one great year, but never led the league, not a great fielding 3B
I am with Mac that dale Murphy should be a HOFer, and even moreso considering how inflated the state are of many of the hitters the last 15 years or so.
But, at leats the Hall can make a legit case against Murph.
Chipper Jones is a surefire HOFer. I don’t see how his accomplishments can be looked at in any way, BUT the Hall.
The argument against Chipper for the HOF (not that I’m inclined to make one) would be:
1. Good hitter, but except for Sep. ’99 never the best in the league
2. Only 5 AS selections
3. Got hurt a lot late in his career
4. Doesn’t get a bonus for playing 3B because he wasn’t a good fielder
He needs to approach 3000 hits and 500 HRs to be a good bet
I think Chipper should definitely get it in unless he does nothing the rest of his career. He is clearly one of the best third basemen in history regardless of his fielding–which obviously wasn’t bad enough to keep the Braves from winning. I don’t think Chipper is in the same category as Raines in terms of his reputation. Raines was really never considered a great player by the general public; Chipper is. I agree that the relatively low counting stats will hurt Chipper but what will hurt him the most is the perception that he is injury prone. Most people, I believe, consider Chipper a great player when he is healthy. The problem is he might be compared to A-Rod the same way that I think Santo is compared to someone like Schmidt. I think if Chipper can stay healthy (a big if obviously) and have a couple of good years, he is in. Even if he doesn’t, I think he has a decent chance to get in. To me, the problem with Murphy is that he had relatively few HOF-caliber years; that’s not true with Chipper and I also think the Braves much higher profile during his career compared with during Murphy’s will help Chipper, especially his performance against the Mets.
Put me in the sure fire HOF crowd.
Chipper is my favorite current Brave. Here is wishing him a healthy 2008.
DOB has made references to Chipper being underated. I think its true. In the last 2 seasons he has been a dominant offensive player.
The problem with Chipper is that he’s not continually in the talk for MVP, year in and year out. He’s also not an incredible popular player outside of Atlanta. Honestly, it seems people like Carlos Beltran get more talk than Chipper, and who’s the better player? I think, based on stats, he’s a sure-fire HOFer, but there are other elements that may hurt him.
Rob, I think that’s also true for Gary Sheffield, who like Chipper has been extremely injury-prone in his career, but still seems a surefire Hall of Famer because he’s such a crackerjack hitter when healthy. I know you’re not arguing against him so much as offering the Devil’s Advocate’s position, but if Chipper Jones can’t make it into the Hall of Fame, then I think the members of this board should lobby Congress to have the BBWAA dissolved.
Incidentally, Chipper got MVP votes in 9 straight years from his rookie campaign to 2003.
He needs to keep playing and his numbers need to approach 500 HR and 3000 hits. 450 HR and 2500 hits makes for a good case, but with these nitwits voting – who ignore OPS+ and other such stats, who ignored that he was the best hitter in the NL in 2007 and didn’t even award him the Silver Slugger for his position; who will likely take a less jubilent view when voting time comes – it can hardly be called a sure-fire case. This is not to say I don’t think he is a Hall of Famer; I absolutely do. I just think ‘sure fire’ means little or nothing to the folks who vote for Jack Morris and against Bert Blyleven.
I think not having Andruw kill 3 months worth of potential rallies in the middle of the order might also enable to allow Chipper to see hittable pitches again.
Couldn’t resist the cheap shot at Andruw. What a shock. Chipper of course hit better last year with Suck Andruw hitting behind him then with Monster Andruw behind him in ’05-’06. Protection is overrated.
He’s gone now Alex, it’s ok to let it go. Find someone on the current roster to direct your irrational hatred towards. Or better yet, don’t.
I remember seeing the Hsv Stars play the Greenville Braves and hearing about this “can’t miss” shortstop (Chipper) that the Braves had. I think he was 0-3 with a walk and he made an error. I was definitely not impressed. I’m glad that my first impressions were completely wrong. Chipper also had quite a bit of speed until he blew out his knee. I wonder where he would be without having to have knee surgery very early in his career.
On the Santana front: What would you give up for a one year rental of Santana? I’m thinking Schaeffer, Jurrjens, Lillibridge, and James. It’s a lot, but with a Smoltz-Santana-Hudson-Glavine rotation, coupled with a Escobar-KJ-Jones-Tex-McCann-Frenchy lineup, we’d have a better than average chance of winning a WS.
But would mortgaging our future be worth it? To me, it would. Sending Smoltz and Glavine off into the sunset with a second WS ring would be worth the 5 years of Marlins-level suckitude to me.
I agree with AAR; if Chipper Jones isn’t a Hall of Famer, they might as well dissolve the Hall, especially considering some of the guys that are in already. But as Adam points out, merit doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with it.
damn chipper……………not bad so far. some of those stats kinda snuck up on me. a couple more normal years should make it easy to get into cooperstown. the switch back to third should help a lot too. thank god for that because he was an awful outfielder. he played almost on the warning track and still had balls hit over his head.
On the Santana front: What would you give up for a one year rental of Santana? Iâ€™m thinking Schaeffer, Jurrjens, Lillibridge, and James.
Goodness gracious. That is a lot. For only one year of Santana, I would give up neither Schafer nor Jurrjens.
It’s very hard to quantify, but I wonder to what degree Chipper’s status as a kind of public relations icon will come into play. He’s been the “face of the Braves” for almost a decade now. I don’t know how much this came into play for other guys (like Raines), but it seems reasonable to at least consider the possibility that PR is more sophisticated and a bigger part of the game than it used to be, and therefore MAY affect HOF voting.
Of course, there’s also a part of me that thinks the ubiquity of the Braves on the media landscape in the 90s might hurt some of the players from that era (media backlash, I guess).
What do y’all think?
i keep hearing ron santos name pop up here but nobody ever mentions ken boyer who was every bit as good as santo.(if not better). not as many career homers, but he only played 8 games a year at wrigley.
I think Chipper gets in as the “hitting” face of the Braves 90’s dynasty. The problem being, they are going to look at the lowish hit total and ignore the walks. But ofcourse a switch hitter who hits 300 will wow them. That and the “gamer” rep.
People forget, Chipper had a higher OPS in 2006 than ARod. it took a ARod monster year to pass him. Looking at career OPS+, ARod is equivalent to Chipper. Ofcourse he put up most of those numbers as a SS, but if the hall considers ARod as 3Bman, it isn’t hurting Chipper.
And Sheff is no surefire hall lock. Big mouth, 500 HRs no longer considered a big honour ( heck, look at mr.583 twisting in the wind ), allegations of game throwing,steroids et al. He is a surefire hall lock for me, but don’t overestimate the people who vote for this bs
Ron Santo had a good peak and longevity. Not sure Boyer is in the same argument.
Also switch hitters. You have Mantle, Murray at the top. Once again, the case of Bernie WIlliams is illustrative. Not as good a hitter as Chipper. More black ink. More important defensive position. Lot of ringzzzz.
And he is barely considered borderline. Chipper is not going in first ballot in a stathead HoF. But the writers may push him in.
If Chipper were a Yankee, he’d have his own church up there.
Chipper’s a Hall of Famer.
At the very least, voters like that career .307 average. And when you tab up the career OBP & OPS, you’re talking about one of the greatest offensive 3Bs of all time.
And if Chipper were a Yankee, it would be a whole lot less entertaining around here—the fans wouldn’t have A-Rod to kick around.
I’d put in Santo, Boyer, and Darrell Evans.
I disagree that Chipper needs close to 500 HR or 3000 hits to get in. He’ll get bonus points for the “face of the franchise” label — and also because he, along with Jeter and Manny, has been the most visible postseason presence in the last 12-14 years.
Include Bernie Williams on the postseason list, too. Forgot about him.
Darrell Evans played a long time, walked a lot, displayed good power, & played a fine 3B. But unless you’re a pitcher, a .248 career batting average doesn’t get you into the Hall of Fame.
Points about the fickle BBWAA are well taken. I guess on the merits of a terrific career IMHO he is a first ballot HOFer to me. My bias clearly stated. A great great player appreciated by the cognizeti here at Braves Journal but some how not by the general Braves fan base. That is if the people who contribute to the AJC’s blog are the general fan base.
Mac, Isn’t Darrell Evans another one of your ‘special projects’ like Murphy. Or am I confusing you with Bill James? In one of his books James built a strong case for Evans and the HOF.
I have, or had, a Darrell Evans for the Hall of Fame page. Let’s see it it’s still up…
Yeah, here it is.
Also, I did him for the annual Keltner List last year.
I’d like for Darrell to make the Hall, but I don’t see it happening.
Yeah, I don’t think we should dissolve the Hall of Fame if the votes are ludicrous. I think the main problem is that the baseball writers who vote on who goes into the Hall simply don’t know as much about baseball as they should. They allow intellectually lazy characterizations like “he was a gamer” to interfere with the very important distinction between good, great, and Hallworthy.
Forget big-Hall — I think we should have a big BBWAA, so that some of the smarter people, like Rob Neyer, Mac, KLaw, John Sickels, JC, and so on could dilute the stupid people’s vote.
I hear lotsa goofy reasons why players do or don’t get votes, but as Mac mentioned a few days ago, it’s harder than ever to get into the HoF.
NY baseball writer Bill Madden was on WFAN a few days ago & offered up the old line, “If you have to think about it too much, the guy’s probably not a Hall of Famer.”
That sounds like an excuse to avoid the necessary research, but it does ring true on the whole. Personally, I’d rather it be too hard than too easy.
Then he went on to offer this: “I never thought Bert Blyleven was a Hall of Famer—not when he played, not after. But you know, I looked at his numbers & the guy had 60 shutouts. There’s gonna be a time when we put in a guy who has zero shutouts. How do you vote for him and not Bert Blyleven?”
The BBWAA actually voted to let some Internet writers (from major commercial sites) in this year. But then they turned around and blackballed Neyer because “he doesn’t have to attend games to do what he does”. Keith Law, too.
@ 9. Stu, comments like that keep me coming back here every day. BRILLIANT! I think last year cemented Chipper’s HOF bust. One more season like ’07, and it won’t matter what I think, he’ll be able to start working on the speech.
Sorry, it wasn’t 9, it was 7.
Before we get all “chipper is made from spun sugar,” remember his first few seasons. He played despite numerous injuries that would have DLed almost anybody, displaying a healing ability that I can only characterize as Wolverinish. His thumb jam injury last year was a freakish thing, and shouldn’t be viewed as the wheels are falling off. I expect 525-550 abs.
I wondered why KLaw and Neyer were not voters. I don’t always agree with what they have to say, and both can be dismissive and flippant about others comments, but I do enjoy reading their analysis.
i like the idea of having a Hall Of Damn Good Players and reserving cooperstown for the absolute best. when they make me director, i’m booting some of those guys down to the HODGP.
So, anyone on the mailing list just got “Jair Jurrjens” in their box. Yep, I didn’t mean to send that just yet. It’s going public two weeks from today:
Jan. 21: John Smoltz
Jan. 22: Tim Hudson
Jan. 23: Tom Glavine
Jan. 24: Chuck James
Jan. 25: Jurrjens
How many players with +1700 career rbi’s aren’t in the HOF?
Chipper will be in there.
And of course he gets in the HOF. He’s got 7000 ABs and a .307 average. All such players are in, except maybe some pre-WWI players.
He’s 30th in alltime SLG. Hank is 26th.
What’s the mailing list?
There’s a way to sign up to get emailed new entries, if you’re a registered user. It doesn’t always work.
I would think I was on a list, but I don’t get anything
You have to sign up separately. Just having your name registered doesn’t do it.
I agree with Bledsoe. Despite all the games he has missed in recent years, Chipper has played through an incredible amount of pain that would have sidelined most players. The injuries he has had recently are either fluky or due to just bad luck/poor conditions, eg, slipping on a wet field in SF a couple of years ago. He has been a lot more durable than Mickey Mantle and I didn’t notice anyone saying that Mantle shouldn’t be in the Hall. But, I do worry that the missed games will affect his rep. Mantle’s injuries were portrayed (at least later in his career) as sort of heroic or romantic but his drinking didn’t help either. To me, Chipper has been far and away the best position player on a team that won 11 division titles (with him)and a World Series. What else do you need for the Hall? He is better at his position relative to others in the Hall than Smoltz is to his, IMO. (And I think Smoltz should be in.)
Of course, I guess if you are one of the double digit IQ commenters on the AJC blog, you would trade him for Neifi Perez.
Mantle’s numbers & accomplishments stood on their own, no matter his mighty thirst.
I’m no fascist, but it does give me pause to consider that AJC bloggers do vote & reproduce.
have anything to do with this?
From DOB at 2:51 -“I have it from a very sound source that the Kotsay stuff has progressed quite a bit. More to come.”
I noticed that the Brewers have signed Mike Cameron (no details).
Buster Olney suggests they’ll probably kick Hall back into the infield and move Braun to LF. That would make sense to me.
I assume they will indeed put Hall back in the IF and not trade him. But that’s just me.
Oh dear. The veteran thing rearing its ugly head again.
@56 interesting correlation ububba. Hmmmmmm. I was just telling some guys this morning that Carrol has it too good at USC to do something dumbass like coach the Falcons.
It’s sort of like Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ comment in a case regarding forced sterilization, “Two generations of imbeciles is enough.”
And I certainly agree about Mantle. Chipper’s numbers do not compare to the Mick’s and I would never disparage the guy–especially after what I consider his heroic death. I was just pointing out that he missed a lot of games and that was probably in part due to not taking care of himself. Chipper has never cheated his ability as far as I know in that way.
Joe Sheehan loves Frenchy:
“…youâ€™re looking at a .300/.350/.500 player with plus defense. If he takes a leap forwardâ€”which is what I can see happeningâ€”youâ€™re talking about a mid-ballot MVP candidate. Given the RBI heâ€™ll end up with as a product of batting behind Chipper Jones and Mark Teixeira, and the bonus given to a player who comes out of nowhere, and he might actually be the BBWAA MVP.”
Mark Kotsay: what is the frickin’ point?
I wonder who the Braves will have to give up for the privilege of paying Kotsay five million for 2008.
DOB says the Braves have acquired Kotsay.
65-soon I mean.
I remember watching Mark Kotsay in the 1996 Olympics against Italy. The US team completely destroyed Italy, but I really remember seeing Kotsay having a cannon for an arm in that game and thinking he was gonna be a huge stud in the majors. Of course, I was only 8 years old at the time…
Kotsay sucks. He’s been declining for four years, so the excuse that his back was hurt last year really doesn’t hold water.
On the other hand, this trade (if it happens) is right in Terrance Moore’s wheelhouse. He’s going to have one of his stopped-clock days soon.
If the Braves give up a prospect of any standing, I don’t care if the A’s pay all of Kotsay’s contract it’s a bad deal.
and kotsay was 11 years and many injuries younger too…
terrible terrible news
hell sign Cameron or Patterson, or let me play center
Cameron’s apparently out, signed by the Brewers. There is no reason in hell to go to these depths. I am currently hoping that all my reverse-jinx powers can blow up this trade by writing a (somewhat profane) player analysis (never has the “anal” part been so justified) of Rotsay.
IF it is a mid-level porspect (Maybe one of our 58 soft tossing lefties) and the guy can play solid until Shaffer is ready, then it is an okay deal.
Although I agree that it’s probably not the best solution out there, I think its a little early to say this is a terrible trade. He has put up some decent numbers in the past and hes still only 32 years old. Its possible he has a bounce back year this year.
If I knew that Corey Patterson was the only other option the Braves were considering, I would wheel Mark Kotsay to Atlanta in a rickshaw. And I don’t like Mark Kotsay.
Smitty, good point. I’ll wait until I see what the trade consists of, if Oak eats $4-5 mil and we dont give up anything valuable, then I’ll be okay with it. Here’s to hoping he’ll put up his 04-05 numbers
Kotsay’s most-similar player, statistically (he’s not within a mile on defense) is Garry Maddox, whose last good year was at 32. His comps have a distubing tendency to have had their last good year at 31 or 32, or even to have washed out of the game entirely at that age. If Kotsay wasn’t under contract, he’d be hoping for a spring training invite.
In 2005, his OPS+ was 97. In 2006, it was 88, a back problem that required surgery could be a plausible excuse. In 2007 it was Langerhansesque, but we’ll ignore that for the moment. If he could put up an OPS+ of 90, that’s probably more than Anderson/Blanco could do.
Of course, if we gave up a prospect worth anything, then it’s an utterly worthless deal. Then again, what did we ever get from Oakland in the Langerhans deal?
And his wife is hot!
We think the Braves would be crazy to take on a portion of Kotsay’s $8 million salary without first seeing him in spring training. The 32-year-old looked nothing like a major league baseball player after returning from back surgery last year, and he had clearly slipped defensively even before that. Oakland would likely be better off with Chris Denorfia in center field anyway.
hell sign Cameron or Patterson, or let me play center
I’m afraid Cameron’s out. Despite all this money we (supposedly) have to throw around, we can’t keep up with the Brewers.
Kotsay had a good six year run of usefulness there but that appears to be over. A bad back is tough for a player to shake once he’s past 30.
Oh man, his wife just made this deal about 10 times better.
It’s especially unfortunate that this news had to mar Chipper’s write-up.
I’m undecided between Rotsay and Kotsuck for next season.
DOB said that the A’s could pay a sustantial part of his $8 mil salary. If this is true and IF Kotsay has healed up from his injuries, this may not be a bad deal. His career numbers are decent and I like having a guy in the 2 spot who doesn’t strike out much. Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s hard to think of a 32 year old as being over the hill. Maybe this will allow Cox to platoon him with Anderson/Blanco or even Schafer after mid-season. If this happens, hopefully a KJ platoon at 2nd would be less tempting.
Is Kristin Benson still available too?
I’ve just done all I can and written a complete (mean) writeup of Kotsay that I will have to trash if the deal isn’t done.
I don’t really hate Kotsay. I don’t really hate it when my wife makes cauliflower for dinner (but I don’t really like it either).
Dan is the Kristin Benson availability comment so that we can corner the market on ballplayers’ hot wifes? Anna may be hot, but she is certifiably apesh!t crazy.
Two key points: Oakland would eat salary & he’d only be in Atlanta this year.
Surprise me, Mark.
But then again, perhaps the Braves are acquiring Kotsay for his clairvoyance…
Maybe they’re throwing in Blanton so that we’ll take Kotsay off their hands.
And if the A’s are paying a substantial part of his salary, that has to mean we gave up something of value.
I feel like I need to take a shower.
I don’t think Kotsay is a bad acquisition. Sure, he’s not great, but he’s passable and there are really no other options at CF.
As long as the A’s pay most of the salary and we don’t give up a prospect of serious value, I’m for this. It at least gives us a body for the spot, which we don’t have right now.
I don’t understand why the A’s would pay most of his salary without getting a prospect of at least moderate-to-good value…
Maybe Kotsay is the PTBNL in the Langerhans deal?
Did I mention that if we sign Corey Patterson I will take hostages? And that said hostages would be forced to accompany me on a three-day, five-state killing spree? And that I would then demand that Frank Wren sign three of the hostages and bat them in front of Corey Patterson just so I could then demand that an opposing GM sign me as a pitcher, just so I could then intentionally walk said hostages just to pitch to Corey Patterson? I don’t know whether I mentioned any of that.
The low-revenue A’s would want a higher-caliber prospect if they included cash in the deal
Sansho, that’s hysterical.
I’m not sure they’d want much. There can’t be a huge market for him, and a 32 year old isn’t a big part of a rebuilding effort. If they cut him outright, they’d have to pay all but the minimum, so if they can get someone to pay more than that, plus get some prospect out of the deal, it might be their best option.
I’d rather have Patterson than Kotsay.
I’d rather have chlamydia than Kotsay.
Now THAT’S a quote!
The existence of Patterson on the market might be what keeps Kotsay’s price low. I’d rather have Patterson, too, but I’m guessing he’d be more expensive.
If the A’s were planning on releasing him, wouldn’t the team that picked him up sign him for a league minimum and the A’s would have to pay the remaining $7.5 mil or so? If so, why would they require a high-caliber prospect if they paid $5.5 mil and the Braves payed $2.5 mil for example?
Patterson’s asking price is $6 million, or $2 million less than Kotsay’s salary, and you don’t have to give up a prospect to get him.
I don’t think the A’s were going to release him as his salary, while high, isn’t high enough to force a trade. Releasing him would net very little relief so they were looking at holding him until July 31 to see if he could build value during the first part of the season.
I guess that’s why I don’t believe the high level prospect thing. If Patterson would cost $6m, then how much could Kotsay, four years older, possibly cost? $4 mil and a low-level prospect? Maybe less?
Anything more, and we should be signing Patterson instead.
Can somebody explain to me what exactly it is Kotsay does well ?
No doubt he’s gritty.
We’re past looking for people who do things well and more looking at relatively cheap people who won’t kill the team while keeping the seat warm for Schafer.
Can somebody explain to me what exactly it is Kotsay does well ?
108 — don’t we have a number of young guys that don’t cost anything extra that could at least do that?
A fair point raised by you Mike A. If the Braves pay for that $3 million on this deal and give up a prospect that has any chance at
all, count me as strongly against it.
Why can’t the Braves sign Wilkerson or ?somebody of that ilk that’s still left to a minor league deal ??
Word on the street is he’s related to Pete Orr
There ya go, another thread, another Pete Orr name drop….my work is done.
IF Kotsay were reasonably healthy, then he is a better than average offensive and defensive center fielder (a vast step up from where we are now).
HOWEVER, there should be no expectation that he would be healthy or good enough to be better than the miscellaneous drivel we already had.
If I’d refreshed earlier, I’d have had a shot at beating you to that outstanding joke. Well played.
If Chlamydia comes to Tuscaloosa/Atlanta to you as heterosexual as a result of the Kotsay deal, then, indeed, you would have gotten LUCKY to have chlamydia.
I really thought all of the swirl on Kotsay was a way to bring in Blanton and Kotsay, take on both salaries, and trade less back to the A’s than the talk on Blanton. In that fashion, the trade would make much more sense.
That was supposed to say that *if the Braves pay more than $3 million of his $8 million* salary
Mark Thomas Gord Kotsay?
Really? there are maybes and yeses to that question? Does everyone understand that Mark Kotsay isn’t good enough to start on most AAA rosters and is going to make $8 million next year? Are we clear on that?
This is a terrible terrible thing. He was worse than league average before the injury and was a clear detriment to the team after it. He hurts the team. He makes it worse. He is not a stopgap. He is a black hole. I can’t believe how much better an offseason the Brewers are having than the Braves. I feel dirty.
Smitty, now I haven’t said anything positive about a Vol in over a decade and a half*, but very nice work there.
My favorite quote from the comments in the second link is:
Oh, there she is. Yeah, pretty hot – and also very, very cute, which just adds to the hotness. She looks like the kind of woman who would bake you an apple pie, serve it with ice dream, and then do you in the kitchen until your eyes pop out.
*since the attempted assassination
Adam, I understand how you feel, I just can’t get that worked up.
Feeling dirty, to me, is looking at concert posters for Hannah Montana and realizing she’s a 15 year-old playing a girl who’s supposed to be something like 12.
12 year-olds just don’t look like that, and they ain’t supposed to. The fact that someone thinks they’re supposed to… ugh. Makes me feel MUCH worse than Mark Kotsay.
Regarding Kotsay, I don’t want us to sign him. We would be much better off with our in-house alternatives…
..but if the Nats want to sign him, as a D.C. resident, I am all for it!
I feel sick about the Kotsay rumours and it brings me back to the halcyon days of the Raul Mondesi experiment. Probably means we will definitely be seeing Schafer by June or earlier.
I hope that part of this deal requires Mark’s wife to be present at every game and visible in all shots of the dugout. We’ve had enough of Booby Cox’s nose picking, lets get some JK in the picture.
I voted maybe. If it’s for someone we’re not going to use, like, say, Prado, then would it REALLY be so bad?
This is pretty crazy:
The Hawks were also docked 50 grand for the error. Anyone here have official scorer experience?
It really depends on the circumstances. There are some that are favorable to both sides and some (read: more) that are counterproductive to the Braves.
Sam, to what question is #127 in response?
To be blunt, I’m on the fence. I realize that this is nuts, but there’s no gaurantee that Kotsay is going to be as bad as he was that season.
I know about Wilson. I know about Mondesi. I know that it’s silly in general to import a singles hitter that costs a lot.
But let me ask this: if Kotsay does recover (which is likely, I think), would he be better than Josh Anderson? Besides, this would let Schafer stay in Mississippi and Richmond for the season. Isn’t that what most of us want?
That was a continuation to post #125.
Why, exactly, were the Hawks fined?
kotsay….or stephen baldwin…you decide. i say sign stephen baldwin and make him pretend he’s kotsay. at least we’ll get a laugh.
What makes you think Kotsay is likely to recover? Because he says so? Have you seen his medical records?
@109 Excellent! (still laughing)
As for what else he does well.
hard nosed – same as scrappy I guess
good club house guy
I thought the Mondesi, Jordan part 3, Rico Brogna, Caminitti ‘experiments’ would have taught the Braves by now. AND Kotsay will be more expensive and God Forbid cost us a prospect. AND at his peak he wasn’t as good as all of the above BUT his wife IS smokin hot.
I’m not high on this deal, but remember, Crapsay will be in a contract year and I could definitely see him putting up Rowand-esque type numbers then going back to sucking next year after some dumb GM gives him a 5/50 contract.
Ryan C, OMG the resemblance is uncanny!!!
No, nor do I claim to know, but all I want is the Braves to have a center fielder that can keep Schafer in the minor leagues for another year and Anderson on the bench, where they both belong for 2008. Kotsay might not be the answer, but at least the Braves are thinking of getting someone.
I remember watching Kotsay in the 1996 World Series just like Mike. And also, I was 8 too. I remember him making a sick diving catch going towards the right-centerfield wall on the warning track. Hopefully he won’t suck as bad as he did last year.
DOB is reporting that it could be Thorman or Prado for Kotsay. I could live with that.
I’d think it’d be Prado, because the Braves need Thorman for when Teixeira signs elsewhere. Seriously.
Because Thorman will use the bench time he’ll get this year to suddenly morph into a major league hitter? I’m sorry, that’s just not gonna happen.
Don’t put words in my mouth, please. I did not say that. Maybe the Braves will be able to sign or trade for another first baseman then, but I’d rather keep Thorman around.
Sorry, Sam, but when you say we need to keep Thorman around, the implication is that he’ll have something positive to offer. We wouldn’t keep him around in order for him to suck. Yet, in my opinion, that’s exactly what he would do. He’s terrible. I’d bat him behind Corey Patterson, if such a thing were possible.
He can be positive as a pinch-hitter, can’t he? Someone has to stick around to be a backup first baseman, and it sure as hell isn’t going to be Kala Ka’aihue or Brayan Pena.
Your original post was referring to 2009, which is what I was responding to.
Thorman sucks, and the A’s won’t be interested in him. Nor will they be interested in Prado. DOB was answering a delusional fan who wondered if the Braves would have to give up anything as “good” as those two.
Diaz can back up first.
Seriously, we’re talking about Billy Beane here. Do you really think he’d be interested in two guys who are essentially identical to any given AAA lifer?
If they gave up Prado for Kotsay and 5MM, regardless of what anyone else thinks, it’s a good deal. Worst case, he’s Mondesi (or countless others). However, he’s as healthy as he can be and to be blunt, it wouldn’t take much to be better than Anderson. He’s had some decent years, and for all the diatribes, who the hell knows? Plus, it’s not like Prado’s production would be hard to replace.
A caveat though. The higher the value of the player given up compared Prado, the worse I consider this deal for the Braves.
I guess it’s all moot, though.
He traded Tim Hudson for Dan Meyer, Juan Cruz, and Charles Thomas.
Plus, before he started the firesale, Oakland’s farm was pathetic, and that goes straight back to him.
At the time, for one reason or another, Dan Meyer was one of the Braves’ top pitching prospects, I think. I don’t know what the hell Beane saw in Thomas, though. Cruz… well, yeah, he was Cruz all the way.
Cruz wasn’t just some miscellaneous guy, you know — he’s a big time talent, but apparently a head case. He was still a prospect, only 25, and had pitched extremely well for the Braves (in low-leverage situations) in his year for them After stinking up the joint in Oakland he’s become a good reliever for the D-Backs.
I never did get why he liked Thomas, but he was clearly the third guy in the deal that was basically for two pitchers.
Yeah, he was and at the time I thought the Braves gave up a good player. The point was that Beane, just like everyone else, was seeing something not there. Granted, I hated Moneyball and don’t like Beane, but my biases aside, the guy has made his share of bad decisions, especially in the draft the past few years.
Sure. But what he does know is that guys like Thorman and Prado are essentially free talent, that there are lots of guys like them who can be had for nothing. Thorman is particularly useless on a team with Dan Johnson, who is basically a slightly more talented version of Thorman, and with Daric Barton on the way.
Trust me, A’s fans are gleeful about getting rid of Kotsay:
I feel about this news exactly as I felt about the Jason Kendall trade: to get anything of value for Kotsay at this point, including salary relief, is a great move.
Also, they think whoever the Braves give up, it’s someone on the 40-man. And despite what the Athletics blogger thinks, I think it could be Devine.
That would be a huge mistake.
Yea I dont know if I would like the deal if it was Devine.
As I’ve indicated, I think just acquiring this load is a huge mistake.
I’m sorry, after seeing Jamie Kotsay’s pictures…
Mark, welcome to the Braves. I only ask that all televised Braves games take obligatory Jamie shots. 😉
In all seriousness, if the A’s pick up the most of the tab on Kotsay and it’s only a year, I don’t see the harm giving him a shot.
But the $ would have been better spent on Cameron.
If it was Devine, I would be really pissed. I figured they wanted a dump, and get something in return. I mean honestly, NO ONE would pay this guy 8MM even for free.
Is Kotsay a statue in center field too?
We just got Horacio’ed.
I miss you Andruw!!!!!111111111111
At one point, Kotsay was slighly above-average in center.
No, braves14, we haven’t gotten Horacioed.