Name this pitcher: Fifth in career wins by an Atlanta Brave. (Numbers 1-4 are pretty easy.) Extra points if you can do this without looking it up. I mean, looking stuff up, that’s easy.
Name this pitcher: Fifth in career wins by an Atlanta Brave. (Numbers 1-4 are pretty easy.) Extra points if you can do this without looking it up. I mean, looking stuff up, that’s easy.
Wild guess, Rick Mahler.
Steve Avery?
No and no.
Millwood?
Actually, scratch that. If it ain’t Avery, it sure ain’t Millwood.
Atlanta is key clue…hmmm
Smoltz
Smoltz is in the top four. This is the record for wins as an Atlanta pitcher only, Boston and Milwaukee don’t count.
hmmm…Niekro, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz & WHO?
Carl Morton?
Scratch that, Now I’m not so sure Glavine would be there.
Not Morton. I should say that I would have guessed Mahler.
The current order is:
Niekro
Glavine
Smoltz
Maddux
X
Not Rick Mahler? That would have been my guess. How about Long Ron Reed.
Ron Reed?
Reed is sixth, Mahler is seventh.
John Burkett
Charlie Liebrandt! Ha – JK.
Craig McMurtry??
No no no.
Neagle
This is going to be very obscure.
I’m trying to look it up, but I can’t find a page that separates only Atlanta Braves from all-time Braves.
The Vulture
Albie Lopez….I know that’s gotta be it!!! haha.
I found the answer, but half cheated, so I won’t say.
I looked it up – too curious – but I’ll be honest and wait until someone legitimately gets it.
Rick Camp….wait, he only won like 50 some right?
As of 1970, he was the winningest pitcher in Atlanta history (even ahead of Knucksie).
What the hell–Pat Jarvis?
Re Athens: it was a great college town although I am not into music that much. Being close to Atlanta was a big asset–and I assume that, by now, Atlanta is more accessible than when I was there. Restaurants were good–at least for a poor grad student. Sanford Stadium was great, but I guess you can’t sit on the tracks anymore to watch a game since they enclosed the stadium. And, no offense to Alabama alumni here, but I’ve been to Tuscaloosa–Norman can’t possibly be worse.
All things being equal I would take Bedard over Francoeur from a baseball standpoint because I doubt Frenchy is going to ever be much better than he is now. You’re talking about a potential ace starter versus basically a league average right fielder. Of course, you have to factor health and money into the equation.
That’s it, Marc. Leaderboard:
Niekro 266
Glavine 242
Smoltz 207
Maddux 194
Jarvis 83
Reed 80
Mahler 79
Millwood 75
Avery 72
Camp 56
Garber 53
Hudson, with 43, should make the top ten this season.
where can you look it up?
good question Mac, I really am confused. I cheated also and wont say, but Ifound this interesting
in 1875 Al Spalding’s record
54-5 1.59 era 570IP
I guess the closer didn’t get much work when Al Spalding pitched, huh? Tony LaRussa would probably have only let him pitch 7.
I cheated too because I never would have named Pat Jarvis. I found it on the atlanta braves mlb site. Wasn’t he the St. Johns basketball coach for a period of time? LOL!!!
Did I read that the Nats are looking to move Kearns for pitching? He can play CF, right?
James, Morton & Eric Campbell for Kearns & Cordero
Schafer, Lillibridge, Hanson, Devine & Locke for Bedard
Disclaimer: I fully realize that neither of these would happen…but what do you guys think?
Apparently Spalding only had 9 strikeouts that year.
From the last thread — are you saying that Curt Schilling is a cannibalistic humanoid underground dweller?
In other news, after losing Rowand and trading away Michael Bourn, the Phillies gave a 2-year contract to Geoff Jenkins. Over/under on games he’ll play for them in the next two years: 250. They got him for $6.5 million a year, so clearly they’re not paying him to hit 30 homers. If he actually plays most of the time, it’s a pretty good deal, but I doubt he’ll actually do that.
Stu, Kearns has the arm for CF, and a nice enough bat, but I’ve never heard him considered to have the glove for it, and he certainly doesn’t have the durability. But I don’t know for sure if he’s ever been considered there, or if that’s baseless.
Um, I’m going to show my age here: who the hell is Pat Jarvis?
Seriously? Only 9 Ks? Did they have an extra fielder in those days?
Kearns has played 60 games in CF in the bigs. Compared to 615 in RF.
Schafer, Lillibridge, Hanson, Devine & Locke for Bedard.
That would quite possibly be the worst trade in the history of MLB.
Yeah, trading unknowns for a proven ace in his prime is a bad idea.
@39 I might have to agree, but there have been some pretty awful swaps in the past.
Just ask John Smoltz, Stu.
That may be a mistake, but also I believe that was the period when hitters could ask for a low strike or high strike. It was certainly still the period when you had to throw underhand. You were supposed to pitch to contact, and just threw as hard as you could (from 45 feet away); even the curveball hadn’t been invented yet.
Also, look at the difference between earned runs and runs on Spalding’s line. 686 career earned runs, for a 2.14 career ERA — but 1791 career runs allowed, or 5.58 per nine innings. No fielding gloves, you see. At the same time, the 253-65 career record shows that he was pretty good at throwing underhand.
I wrote up Jarvis, but I honestly don’t know a whole lot about him.
Well, Tom, the Andy-Marte-to-John-Smoltz ratio in trades like these is pretty high. Way to list one example, though, and act like that’s the rule.
(Also, Alexander helped the Tigers! Like the Tigers’ then, the Braves’ window is closing. I’d be in favor of going for it and rebuilding.)
its impressive that Spalding only issued 14 walks in that many innings also.
The most fun thing to do with Al Spalding’s page on B-R: neutralize the stats.
It turns out that with neutralized stats, Al Spalding would have won 898 games against 71 losses in his 7-year career, with a career 1.12 ERA in 8748 adjusted innings.
They pitched more innings back then, you could say.
Before 1880, it took nine balls to issue a walk.
That would be a heck of a haul for the Orioles. I’m not sure how smart of a move it is for Atlanta though. Schafer is the hang up for me and he’s probably the guy they would demand we give up.
Schafer is the hang up for me and he’s probably the guy they would demand we give up.
Yep. You could probably negotiate most everyone else, but Schafer would have to be included. And that would be fine with me.
Why the Orioles might want Schafer… Markakis looks like he might be good, but before him I can’t find the last good outfielder they actually developed. It may be that the Orioles have never developed a great outfielder. Certainly never a Hall of Famer. I think that the best outfielder to come out of the Orioles system is Al Bumbry. Paul Blair came up with the Orioles but was originally Mets property.
Stu, if we trade away Schafer, then who is going to play CF next year? Oh wait, we can trade for a CF then and give up… hm, pitching maybe? And besides, the thing with pitchers is that you never know. I was excited when JS brought Mike Hampton to the Braves, because I thought he would quickly become an ace again once removed from Coors. Which he did at first, but then, well,… Gonzo also looked like a good trade, and so did Dotel, Baez and many others. In other words, I would’t give up too much for a pitcher, no matter who it is, unless he has a health record like Glavine, Maddux or some other guys who pitched for years and never had anything. Bedard is certainly not in that category.
I’m just glad it won’t happen, let’t leave it at that.
re Jarvis:
He later became one in a series of corrupt DeKalb County sheriffs — he spent some time in federal prison for a mail fraud scheme involving some prison contractors.
I liked the Teixeira trade, but I’d be hesitant to send another 5 prospects out, the farm system would be wiped clean.
Uh, the Dotel and Baez trades never looked good, even when made. We knew we’d have to fix Hampton. Gonzo still was a good trade. None of those compare to getting someone like Bedard.
Guys, if we only gave up prospects to get Bedard, we’d immediately become the favorites to win the NL. The window is closing, folks. Let’s try to win while we can.
Oh, you youngsters. Jarvis was the “ace” of the staff for a couple of years after the team moved to Atlanta until Niekro joined the rotation. (This staff featured names like George Stone, Denny LeMaster, Tony Cloninger, and Ron Reed.) He was still the number 3 on the 1969 team that won the Western Division. I think he won 16 games once and in 1968, his ERA was under 3–of course, in 1968,pretty much everyone’s ERA was under 3. He was known as the “Little Bulldog”, I guess because he tried hard. He is best known for giving up Ernie Banks’ 500th home run which is shown about every 12 seconds somewhere.
I wonder if he pitched on the prison baseball team.
Ilike Bedard a lot, but five for one would be too much.
What I was trying to say is that if you trade for a pitcher, he better not get hurt, which can happen any time. That’s why I would not give up a ton of talent for a guy like Bedard (though I like him a lot), not even taking into concern that my starting center fielder for the next 6 years would be among them.
And besides, Hampton was just as big then as Bedard is now.
I’m with Stu, get into win now mode, try to pull out a world series title and then go into a rebuilding mode. Emptying out the farm is no big deal if you’re prepared to take the time to restock it.
How do you propose the Braves get a guy like Bedard then?
And besides, Hampton was just as big then as Bedard is now.
Just not true. His contract was an albatross and many were convinced he’d lost it.
not even taking into concern that my starting center fielder for the next 6 years would be among them.
I’d much rather worry about CF and have an ace on the staff than the other way around.
I don’t know if anyone mentioned this yesterday — probably they did — but Mahay signed with the Royals (for $8 million over two years, surely we could have matched that) and the National League Champion Colorado Rockies signed Redman for some reason.
FWIW, Kearns has 2 or 3 years left on his deal, so if you got him, Hernandez would presumably be ready by the time he leaves. Even if Kearns weren’t an option, though, I’d still give up Schafer to get Bedard.
#59, that’s a good question. I would say you’d have to include a proven – yet expendable – star in the mix, like Renteria. That would save you a lot of talent. Then you could throw in a guy like Lillibride, who has a lot of talent but plays at a position where you have other options, and two lesser prospects that the other club might like for some reason.
#60, fortunately the Braves already have 2 aces so they don’t need to trade away their future (and Shaeffer, Devine, and Lillibridge might very well be their present) for another one.
Mac,
I am surprised by the Mahay deal. I had heard that it was going to be at least a 3 year deal.
Tom, you’re living in la-la land. The Orioles are going into rebuilding mode—they would have no desire for Renteria. It’s going to take at least one blue-chip prospect and other very good prospects to land Bedard.
Schafer is not the Braves’ present. He and Teixeira will never play on the same team. You have to give up something of value to get something of value.
And I’m highly skeptical about Devine ever playing a meaningful role on the Braves.
Renteria has been gone for months???!!!
Really? When did that happen?
Today’s actual book title:
Insturmental Music For Dyslexics
Stu, if the Orioles were not interested in my package, then I would not trade for Bedard at all (which, as you might remember, was my point all the way). I’m not going to post another one on this, because it is really a non-issue, but I will say that I’m glad it’s Wren and not you at the helm.
Yeah, nine balls for a walk, but foul tips were considered balls. See Tip O’neill, the baseball player, not the obese Boston pol.
Josh, say it ain’t so.
Next thing these stupid Braves do is they let Maddux go!
Wait when did we have Renteria? What happened to Blauser?
I follow the Nats closely, and I haven’t heard anything about Kearns being dangled. No, he can’t play CF. And yes, he is a below average right fielder.
The Braves have two aces–one of which is 40+ years old, the other is coming off a very good season following two mediocre ones, but who even then struggled at times. I don’t think getting Bedard is at all realistic but I don’t agree that the Braves don’t need him.
I did, however, like the James interview and have some hope that he will improve next year.
I don’t think you can trade established players for guys like Bedard. When you trade away a Bedard you are essentially throwing in the towel on trying to win in the near future, and the team acquiring him is mortgaging the future to win now.
There is no way to align interests between two teams both trying to trade proven assets unless one team just has a glut at one position and a void at another.
Trading Bedard for Renteria + Lillibridge for example. The Orioles lose Bedard but they don’t improve any aspect of their team. The MLB roster gets worse, and the farm system gets only marginally better, and at a position that Renteria would be occupying.
Thanks, bledsoe, that answers that.
Up next: Getting Fuentes and Spilborghs from Colorado!
Last thing I’ll say about Bedard: He would do more for the Braves’ chances of winning a championship in his 2 years here than will Schafer in the next 6. That’s why the deal would be a no-brainer for me.
As fascinating as the idea of trading a guy who isn’t on the team anymore may be, it’s even more pointless than normal. Why not trade the guys we got for Renteria plus Devine and something else? This is still fairly pointless but not impossible.
Renteria is simply being bandied about as an example of an established major leaguer who is expendable for the team he plays for. When he was on the Braves, he was evidently expendable.
I think it’s worth pointing out though that the return on him was not another established major leaguer, but rather prospects, which is typically what established major leaguers are traded for.
Right…So you guys were just playing trade scenarios off in la la land. Let me know when you guys wake up, so that I don’t make anymore comments that will bring back a load of sarcasm.
Stu, if the Orioles were not interested in my package, then I would not trade for Bedard at all (which, as you might remember, was my point all the way).
Sorry, Tom, I’m not interested in your package either.
(I apologize. I couldn’t resist.)
Speaking of La-la Land, it’s almost a third of the way through the season and the Hawks are above .500! I don’t recognize this world.
Well, unless the Orioles have an unusual affinity for Jurrjens or Hernandez (both good prospects, neither elite), that “something else” would have to be elite, and the only Braves prospect who fits that bill is Schafer, whom you wouldn’t get rid of while already trading Hernandez.
I wish we had a good Greek prospect.
FWIW, I would have definitely guessed Rick Mahler.
Jarvis was a slightly above league average pitcher at a time when the Braves didn’t really have any pitching at all after Niekro. The drop in wins from Maddux at No. 4 with 194 to Jarvis at 83 isn’t some sort of statistical anomaly. He was a fan favorite, nonetheless. He was pitching the game that made me a Braves fan, when he tripled with the bases loaded to beat the despised Dodgers, 7-0.
I am going to show my age. My recollections of Pat Jarvis are the same as Marc Schnieder’s. The Little Bulldog wow Marc how the heck did you remember that?
Stu, I agree with your general assessment. After the Haren deal I couldn’t help but wonder if we didn’t have the same level of talent to give for the most precious of baseball commodities, a young ace under contract at a ‘reasonable price’ for a couple of years. A bolder move would be to include Escobar in a deal. I think that Lillibridge is ready to play mlb and I am sure that Yunel isn’t a .320 hitter. Yes we would have to include Schafer who could be the next Andruw or the next Andy Marte.
Stu again I am with you in that I think that the Braves should be in win now mode. Our best players Smotz 41, Chipper 36 and Hudson 32 aint getting younger and the young guys like Francouer, McCann, Johnson and Escobar have proven to be good but not great players so far.
I guess the only counter argument would be that in the NL being just good enough to get to the playoffs is good enough to win it all….see the 2006 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals. And that by not trading the farm you can sustain being in contention for a longer period of time and not be the Marlins.
sorry for the long post.
Kearns home/road splits in 2007 lead me to believe he can still hit, but I don’t believe in him at all. He’s shown an aversion to fitness, there’s the alcohol issue, and he’s been a whiny b**** a time or two, IIRC. No thanks.
But we can’t get to the playoffs with the current roster. We failed last year and I don’t see our MLB roster as having improved at all this offseason.
Here’s the deal, we only have to win the East to have a chance. I don’t think we have to build a team that wins a division against the Red Sox. The playoffs are a crapshoot. I’ve watched us enter the playoffs so many times with the best pitching staff in the league only to fall apart in the end. No doubt getting Bedard would make us a favorite in the East, but where do you think we rank right now? The Phils are the only team that semi scares me.
Actually we could get the Wild Card and have a chance.
For some reason, I have this internal notion that going to DC & playing in RFK Stadium for the Nats is the same as being transported to some alternative universe called Suckland.
As in, once you put on that uniform you now…just…suck.
I’m sure the new DC stadium will relieve & correct those bizarre daydreams.
I say go for it now. Sure, the NL is weaker and thus it’s easier to get to the playoffs, but I don’t understand why that should prevent an NL team from trying to make it even easier by trading for a Bedard. Given the age and health of some of the players on the team, like Smoltz and Chipper, I am firmly in the camp of trading for a guy like Bedard. Not that it’ll happen, but still.
I would also scour the farm system for anyone with Greek blood as well, Stu, just to tip the scales for Angelos.
Maybe Scott Thorman can change his last name to Zeusman.
Leonidas, Lillibridge, Devine, Hanson, Locke for Bedard?
I don’t see how we can make the playoffs, we have failed two years in a row and in my opinion the MLB roster is not any better than before. We added Glavine and get a full season of Teixiera, subtracted Renteria and Andruw, and some of the bullpen. We have a rather gaping hole in the lineup in CF as well.
You can’t get the wild card if you finish 3rd in your division.
Sign Thorman up for a membership at the local Greek Orthodox church.
“Peter, we’ll throw in three great young talents — Scott Zeusman, Jonathan Scheurholzis, and Blaine Boyerides.”
For some reason, I have this internal notion that going to DC & playing in RFK Stadium for the Nats is the same as being transported to some alternative universe called Suckland.
That’s partly true, but the other part is whenever you look on the back of your jersey and notice your name is “Nook Logan,” well, you’re not going to be a good baseball player. Their best pitchers are Jason Bergmann, Shawn Hill, and John Patterson. Their best hitters are Ryan Zimmerman, Meathook, Nick Johnson, and (arguably) Paul Lo Duca.
They need a few more Tony Lazzeris and a few less Tony Kubeks, if you know what I mean.
Who’s our best hitter?
I think we’re a WC contender and need some luck to win the division. I’m not against trading for Bedard. Obviously he would be a coup, but the CF position is a gaping hole and he clearly fills that spot. What about G. Hernandez, Escobar, Locke, Devine?
Chipper, obviously.
Tony Kubek wasn’t a bad player. They could use a few of him. Their problem is that they have a few too many Tony Freitases and Tony Torcatos.
he = Schafer
I think the Braves are better than the Mets now. There is no CF, but all we need to match last year is somebody who can put up an 88 OPS+. 1B is better and the pitching is better.
First, #70 & #82
AAR – I had the same laugh out loud reaction to Tom’s wording. That cracked me up whenI read it.
I’m w/ Stu on the Bedard thing (or for Dan Haren).
Not only do you try and win now when two of your best players (Smoltz and Chipper) are close to done, not to mention the possibility that Mark Teixeira may only be in Atl. for 1 more year (I keep praying we can keep him or he fires Boras like A-Rod did), but if we learned anything from all those consecutive playoff runs, you win with pitching & defense, even if the offense occassionally struggles.
Plus, Bedard and Haren are young – it’s not like we’re talking about dealing prospects for Schilling or Clemens. We’re talking about 2 young aces in their 20’s. That’s exactly who you should be dealing your key youngsters to get.
That’s the point – so even if Glavine and Smoltz retire next year, guess what, we will have Hudson and Bedard or Hudson and Haren at the front of our staff and can absorb the retirement easier.
Think big picture here.
Plus, as Andy Marte and many others have proven, the most can’t miss prospects sometimes do become Marte of Brad Komminsk.
I see that I’ve been out-analogied.
Well, they also probably need fewer Tony Tarascos.
We don’t want someone who is going to match last year’s performance by Andruw. His performance was one of the main reasons we missed the playoffs.
One more point on getting a Bedard or Haren.
If we get one of those two guys, and then add them into a rotation that includes Hudson, Smoltz & Glavine (plus either James or Jurgjens as 5th starter), the Phillies & the Mets can’t even come close to matching that.
The Mets right now are led by John Maine and Pedro Martinez; we have no idea really if Maine is for real, since his performance came out of nowhere, and Pedro’s arm may fall off tomorrow and never be heard from again. At this point, the next bes “possibility” for a quality Mets starter is the always erratic Aaron Heilman.
The Phillies have one terrific young ace in Cole Hamels who can match anyone we have – that’s fine. But after Hamels, it’s a crapshoot. I am fine if the Mets or Phils keep or get Kyle Lohse. Is anyone really going to say take Lohse over any of our first 4 starters (if we add Bedard or Haren?).
Plus, the Marlins and the Nats are total bottom feeders. We’d be way ahead, pitching-wise, of the two possible other division contenders. I would like that.
Well, Haren’s gone already.
FYI, Alex, Haren’s out of the question. The D-Backs got him and aren’t looking to trade him.
Haren was brought up several times yesterday by everyone as a possibility still. I am well aware the D’Backs got him a while ago, but I assumed that if everyone was talking about Haren, the D’Backs were looking to move him?
Sorry for my misunderstanding of why people were bringing Haren up!
If you read back a bit, you’ll see that some people were talking about trading Renteria. It didn’t make much sense to me, either.
Same reason Renteria was brought up. They make for decent examples if you’re capable of supplanting your time frame for the thought process back to when he was available.
sorry – my bad.
But everything I said earlier still applies to Bedard.
Everything I said about Renteria still applies to Renteria circa 2 months ago.
Johnny,
I’m old and I remember Milo Hamilton always talking about the Little Bulldog. That was before the Braves actually had good pitchers.
I know this is how NL teams are operating now, but what’s wrong with trying to build a really good team rather than just a team “good enough” to make the playoffs in a weak league? That may be why the NL is so weak. I realize you can’t guarantee success in the playoffs, but I don’t see the logic of using the ’06 Cardinals as a model for building the team. There is almost this superstition that you are better off going into the playoffs with fewer wins and hoping to get hot. I’d rather win 100 games than 88 even if you end up losing in the playoffs anyway.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/shared-gen/ap/General_Football_News/FBN_T.O.__Jessica_Simpson.html
Old news now but that story still cracks me up.
T.O. telling someone ELSE they are a “distraction” maybe the greatest example in the history of the universe of the ‘pot calling the kettle black’.
I agree Marc, I think it’s stupid to say “lets just be good enough to make the playoffs and then hope we get lucky against whichever of the 4 superior AL teams we face in the World Series. ”
I understand that most of the top AL teams have budgets that exceed our own, and that our own is actually not that low, but still. The Mets and Dodgers have no excuse for sucking. They have all the resources the Yankees and Red Sox have, and more than the Indians and Tigers have.
I agree w/ Marc that the 07 Red Sox over the 07 Rockies is a more realistic playoff result to look at than the 06 Cardinals shocking the 06 Tigers.
But the problem is, no matter what we do, we will never ever again be able to match the Red Sox or Yankees in sheer amount of talent ebcause of payroll disparity.
That’s why if we can focus on the most important aspect to any team, pitching to at least MATCH Boston Detroit or New York, and grab Bedard, we will at least have a starting rotation comparable to those teams (better than the Yankees).
With Bedard on our team our rotation would be better than the Red Sox’s rotation. Unless they get Santana.
Dix,
I have joked previously on Bravesjournal that if the Bosox acquire Johann Santana, not only will that rotation and pitching staff be almost comical, superhero like in it’s talent level (like a fantasy baseball roster), but we might as well not bother and play the 08 season and just hand the Red Sox their well paid for W.S. trophy.
The arrogance and superiority running through the streets of Boston is almost Roman Empire-like in its quality, with the success these days for the Sox, Pats and Celts.
Getting Johann to Boston is just plain ridiculous. They are just one of a few teams on a different playing field in an economic system that’s clearly not working to keep this sport remotely competitive.
One of the many reasons Bud Selig is the awful commissioner I have maintained for years.
has anyone picked up Corey Patterson yet? wonder how expensive he would be..
The Red Sox are becoming what the Yankees should have been. That is one team that maximizes their payroll status. Not only do they get good players thru money, but their farm system is top notch.
93 — mac, that was hilarious.
The Red Sox and Yankees not only have higher payrolls, they are at least double the Braves payroll, and the Angels, Tigers, Cubs, Mets, and Dodgers will all be over 120 million dollars this year. Which in the Cubs and Dodgers case just goes to emphasize the ineptitude of their GMs as they should be dominating the NL with their payrolls.
We may not be able to outspend the Yankees or Red Sox, but we can blanket the South with our scouts much more effectively. After all, how many of the best baseball players come from Massachusetts?
We have a lot of kids who grew up in the Atlanta area and grew up wishing they could play for the Braves. That’s a home court advantage, and it can help us sign the next prep prodigy — that’s how we can compete in talent even if not in cash.
Also this whole talking about including Renteria in trades for Bedard are making me laugh out loud. Are we gonna share his starts with Detroit?
a 3 for one with the O’s and Tigers is in the works.
The Orioles get Renteria and Lillibridge
The Tigers get Jurrjen and Hernandez
The Braves get Bedard
AAR –
Nobody brought up Haren as a trade possibility yesterday. I posted that Rosenthal stated we were a suprise team that jumped in the running late on Haren (that was just before he was traded to the D-Backs). I then went on to say that if we made a push for Haren, maybe we’ll give Bedard a shot…
Who would win in a fight, all things considered: Jason Bourne or Daniel Craig’s James Bond?
“I know this is how NL teams are operating now, but what’s wrong with trying to build a really good team rather than just a team “good enough†to make the playoffs in a weak league?”
I think you have to look at the cost/benefit. Once you’re in the playoffs, the chance of winning any series is close to 50/50. If the Braves think the team is currently good enough to make the playoffs in the NL (maybe, maybe not), why trade 5 prospects for Bedard if that will only marginally affect your chances to win the WS?
Daniel Craig’s James Bond has survived torture beyond all human endurance. It is painful just to think about those images.
Plus, I don’t think he would feel limited by any concept of a fair fight.
Alex,
I agree with you on getting Bedard (within reason). But I don’t necessarily agree that the disparity in payroll between the Yankees, Red Sox and the rest of baseball means that no one else can compete. The Red Sox haven’t even won 100 games yet and the Yankees are obviously not a great team. I don’t think you necessarily have to match the Red Sox and Yanks dollar for dollar but you have to maximize how you spend your money.
As for Bud Selig, I realize this is beating a dead horse, but what exactly is he supposed to do to correct this payroll disparity. The owners tried doing something in the 80s–it was called collusion and cost them hundreds of millions of dollars. The players will never agree to a salary cap. Just what exactly has Selig done to create this situation that you deplore and what can he do to alleviate it? I really don’t understand.
I don’t think any team is trying to “just barely make the playoffs.”
In the case of limited payroll, you build the best team you can, while maintaining legit resources in the minors. How you strike that balance, obviously, is critical to the health of your franchise. (I believe the Braves are in win-now mode & I’m fine with that, given the roster’s current makeup.)
Still, if you’re only good enough to win 88 games, as opposed to 97, you better hope you’re in a lousy division or the WC race comes down to the last week.
The ’06 Cardinals are not any kind of model for ultimate success, but I also believe that, with the MLB post-season system, you’ll see another ’06 Cardinals win it all. I’d like to think the Braves will be better than that bunch, but I’ll certainly take their result.
Rob,
Gotta say, I’d go with Daniel Craig. But, in my book, Bruce Lee whips ’em all.
Olney says the Mets are trying to acquire Blanton
I think Bourne – he’s a badass. It pains me to say that, as big a Jimmy Bond as I am.
At this point, Met fans are so desperate (and that’s why acquiring Bedard would invariably put our collective foots on their throats) they may ask Doc Gooden and Ron Darling to come out of retirement.
I hear Sid Fernandez and Frank Viola are also still available, Met fans.
Speaking of that, where is our old buddy, NY METS? I miss him. I really would have liked him to be around here during the day of the mets official choke job.
Not sure why a Bourne/Bond debate has suddenly been thrust onto Bravesjournal, but easily, James Bond.
He’s taken down tougher opponents than Bourne. Especially if we are talking about Daniel Craig. The man’s a total bada–.
The other guy likes to drink beer w/ Ben Affleck.
I wouldn’t advocate trading half of our top-10 prospects list for one starter, no matter how good he is. We would be seriously mortgaging our future.
OK, so I have two Daniel Craig James Bonds. Let’s see what everyone else says…
Craig might be a “tougher” James Bond, but Sean Connery remains the best.
I’d like to see Bond kick someone’s ass with a book, ala Bourne in Supremacy. Bourne all the way
Well, ububb, actually the opposite happened. The Nats, suddenly playing in front of 25-30 thousand fans actively cheering them on (vs. 3k French-Canucks), began thinking that they were actually major leaguers and significantly overachieved, particularly in the inaugural season. Even last year, they were expected to take a shot at the Tigers 119 losses, and they didn’t even lose 100. I think AAR’s take on their “talent” is probably more correct than the RFK suckathon factor.
Interesting rankings of NL pitching on SI.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_weisman/12/20/nl.rotations/index.html
I was reacting to someone that said the Braves don’t need Bedard because they already have two aces. My point is, why not try to make the team as strong as possible rather than just relying on the weakness of the NL. No, no one is saying we just barely want to make the playoffs butI think NL teams–except probably the Diamondbacks–are not being as aggressive as they could. Now, I agree that you can’t go crazy and trade all your prospects–which is why I don’t think the Braves can realistically go after Bedard. But what have the Braves really done? They are relying on two 40 year olds–one of which they got for a relative bargain–and,probably tow young pitchers that have not established themselves in the major. I like the Renteria trade, but this is hardly a staff that would scare any of the top AL teams. If you were really trying to build the best team, I think you would make a serious effort to get a Haren or a Bedard. But, they aren’t–they are trying to build a team that can compete and possibly win the NL and, then, hope they meet a team whose pitchers can’t field in the World Series.
I’m not saying that the Braves should trade 5 prospects for Bedard–as I said before I think it’s too much. But, I think they should be trying to build the best team in baseball, not just a team that can hope to make the playoffs and then get hot and lucky. I think any franchise owes that to its fans. Sure, the Braves lost most of the time when they had the great regular seasons, but it was more fun than winning 84 games.
The Braves are obviously trying to win now because they almost certainly won’t resign Teixera. But, at best, this is a team that would be lucky to even contend for a playoff spot in the AL.
I really wish Marc, you and everyone else would stop saying there is no chance of us resigning Tex. I don’t agree.
The Braves by all accounts could have kept Andruw but really chose not to (whatever side you come down on with that one).
Teixeira is pysched to be IN Atlanta and with the Andruw money coming off the books, and the Hampton money FINALLY off the books next winter, along with possibly the Glavine and Smoltz contracts OFF the books, that frees up a lot of space and many of our good young players like McCann are already signed – why wouldn’t we have every opportunity to lay out a fat contract for Teixeira and make him the cornerstone bat in our offense? Makes no sense with all the contracts we are likely shedding.
And I want to again emphasize the point I was trying to make earlier about Erik Bedard.
The guy is a young, super talented, #1 starter. Does anyone realize how freaking hard it is to find those guys? He’s the type of starting pitcher, ala Smoltz and Hudson, you build your staff around. Offense is far easier to get & replace.
I am definitely willing to part with a Lillibridge and/or a Schaefer because it’s a lot easier to replace those guys, than it is to add a #1 starter in his 20’s to your staff.
Plus, if Smoltz and Glavine retire next year, we get the opportunity to stay in contention by having Bedard and Hudson at the top of the rotation.
To me, if there’s a way to get a pitcher the level of Erik Bedard, it’s a no brainer.
Have we all forgotten (exept Stu who gets it) how we built all those consecutive division winners?? By having a loaded starting rotation that could shut down the opposition, night after night after night.
bledsoe,
I fully understand that these are my issues. I take responsibility for my irrational thoughts.
I simply see the Nats and, unless they’re beating the Mets, I get depressed. Maybe it’s their Expo-ness.
When I was a kid, watching the John Stearns-Era Mets on TV, I got a similar feeling from their hopelessness & the hot dog wrappers swirling around their miserable stadium.
OK, it’s time to cheer up. Better break out the Elliott Smith & Leonard Cohen.
And sure, we only won the W.S. once during the 15 year reign of divisions, but the fact is, with a weakened pitching staff the last 2 years, we haven’t even made the Playoffs.
I would at least rather be IN the playoffs than not at all.
In a straight-up fight, Bond. But Bourne’s smarter, he’d figure out a way to win without it coming to that.
Bond could kill Bourne with a dart in his cuff link, although I would pick Maxwell Smart myself. He’s so unpredictable.
bwarrend-
So you would really take Steve Carrell (he will be playing Smart in the film version this coming summer) in a fight over Craig and Damon?
Well, I would pick Carrell in a “Comedy Off…”
Alex,
Do you think that our saying Tex won’t sign is like Schrodinger’s Cat, ie, our observations will effect the result? (: I hope like hell they can resign him but I’m not getting up my hopes.
Ububba,
The Nats aren’t all that pathetic, certainly not compared to the days in Montreal. I think the 70s or 80s Braves were a worse; I went to a game in 1980 with 7 or 8 thousand people in attendence–that was depressing. As much as people rag on RFK, it really wasn’t a bad place to watch a baseball game. Obviously, the Nats have been a bad team, but they have also been pretty exciting.
Braves Journal » How RFK Stadium is like Stonehenge
Bond’s fighting style is pretty punch-heavy. Take away his gadgets, and he has a pretty high tolerance for pain, but that’s about it. With his proficiency in Krav Maga, Bourne could whip Bond in hand-to-hand combat.
Ububba, if you’re trying to get in a good mood, why not try Joy Division?
Mac,
Maybe my standards are low, but RFK is no worse than Atlanta Stadium worse or the Vet in Philly. I didn’t think it was substantially worse in terms of watching baseball than is Camden Yards, which is somewhat overrated as far as sight lines.
Anyway, RFK is gone and we have a new taxpayer supported (but not by me as I live in Maryland!) stadium that looks to be way cool. Hopefully, the Braves will play better in Nationals Park than they did in RFK or at least play better when I am in attendence.
Mac,
clicking on that link and seeing the first comment was “Jenny” makes me realize how we miss our old friend around here? Whatever happened to our old pal?
Wasn’t she in college in the cold midwest somewhere?
Better question for the Bravesjournal panel:
Who would win in a fight between Clemens and Schilling?
I hate them both and wish there was a way they could finish eachother off, but I have to think Clemens would dispatch Schill, fairly easily.
Marc,
Having been to RFK and the Vet on multiple occassions, I can honestly say RFK is worse.
That being said, I am looking forward to the nice, new stadium.
I think RFK is worse. That post was I believe inspired by the time Brian Jordan had an obvious home run called a foul ball because the umpire couldn’t see into the corner, costing the Braves the game.
I misremembered it a little.
Braves Journal » Washtreal 3, Atlanta 2
I hope like hell they can resign him but I’m not getting up my hopes.
Marc is clearly schizophrenic.
Boy, that’s a trip down memory lane, ain’t it?
“Kyle Davies proved he’s human, giving up his first run in the fourth and fading when Bobby tried to get another inning out of him and being lucky to get charged with only one run in the sixth. He threw 106 pitches, which shows his real problem, that he can’t seem to work efficiently. He allowed seven hits, including four doubles, struck out four and walked three.”
AAR,
We should have added to that quote, “And Kyle Davies will continue to prove how human he is, over and over and over and over.”
June 4, 2005: “Kyle Davies was magnificent…”
It is very odd to think about Davies as a young phenom, with his five scoreless inning debut in Boston.
Alex,
Jenny no doubt finally let go of her infatuation with the Braves and devoted her time and energy back to the Red Sox where she belonged.
Stu,
Good point! I plead guilty–or do I?
I was at the game where Jordan lost the home run–in fact, I was sitting in the corner near where the ball hit. The problem is there was a gap between the foul pole and back wall; the ball hit in the gap and bounced back onto the field. It was hard to tell what happened even where I was sitting.
Of course, the truly amazing part was that Jordan hit a home run.
I was thinking about trying to go to opening night with the Braves in town, but I went to a Braves-Nats game in April last year and froze my ass off. I think I’ll wait but they have really bizaare schedule where the Braves come to Washington twice in April and then only once the rest of the season. Who comes up with these schedules?
Mets fans
The Phillies sign Jenkins for their outfield. Color me not scared.
I thought her other favorite team was the Orioles, Justin?
Well, if that’s the case, that’s sad.
Marc,
I was also less than pleased with the Braves DC schedule when I saw it released.
As to Jenny, as I recall, she came by her Red Sox love because she hated the Yankees. She lived not far from Baltimore, and so the O’s were indeed her other team. (She loved Brian Roberts, so I’m wondering how the Mitchell report hit her…)
But she was a diehard Braves fan. I doubt that will have changed. I think some on this board reacted a little strongly to her allegiance to AL teams.
AAR,
I see both sides on her A.L. allegiances. I do recall her Orioles and Red Sox fandom, as strongly as she liked the Braves, and while people should be allowed to root for multiple teams if they choose, she was such a Bosox diehard in here, I can understand why they rubbed many the wrong way. I can’t stand the Sox, they basically are arrogant and buying titles now, and it was hard for many of us to take.
That being said, she was always a great contributor and a good regular here for a long time.
She could have truly been a diehard Braves fan, seemed unlikely to me, and I have no problem with someone being a fan of multiple teams. In fact, I follow the Rangers with a passing interest since they are the closest MLB team to me. I don’t root for them, but I check them out occassionally.
The one thing I guess that always rubbed me wrong was constantly being on a Braves forum and her giving constant updates about the loathsome Red Sox and their nation of obnoxious idiots. I equate it to eating dinner with your wife, all the while talking about your smoking hot mistress as if its no big deal.
Oh well it seems like true die hards in here now. S
By the way, have I mentioned what a huge Yankees fan I am?
jea,
I hope that was sarcasm.
Justin, can I have your smoking hot mistress’s phone number?
Justin,
It certainly was. I couldn’t resist throwing one out there. Only the Braves for me.
867-5309
I’m worse than a Yankee fan. I’m a Braves fan who gives Steinbrenner his money.
I don’t think your $25 dollars a game is doing much for the Steinbrenners, so your pretty harmless.
In a hand to hand brawl I gotta say Bourne wins.
Justin,
I’ve been a season-ticket holder since ’96, so there’s guilt. Been a B Plan person (46 games split among 3 groups) since ’02.
And then there’s the hefty post-season outlays, which cost more than the entire season.
It adds up. (This past year, nine people coughed up over $6K for reg. & post-season, some of it refunded, of course.) I always feel like I’m partially responsible for the Yanks’ ability to throw their money away on the Steve Karsays & Drew Hensens of the world.
But it’s always entertaining. And even at $25 a pop now, it’s the best sports deal in NYC.
And now for news of the weird…
Papelbon’s dog reportedly eats World Series ball
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3163105
Ububba,
All your spending over that time couldn’t even pay for one inning of a Clemems start, so I say you should be free from guilt.
OK, so I paid for some syringes.
HA!
On another note, count me in with the “miss Jenny” crowd. This place is a sausage party most of the time and an informed female voice should be a welcome thing, no matter where alliances lie. Just my opinion.
/dons fire suit.
As long as a poster isn’t overly obnoxious or completely moronic about spouting allegiences, I don’t really care which teams people root for.
I come to this place because I’m in a world of pinstripes & Metdom. Why feed the animals?
urlhix, that’s your second sausage reference in the past couple of days, and neither one has anything to do with the other. Nicely done.
i became a braves fan in 1957 when they beat the yankees in the series. all i knew about baseball was that any good person was supposed to hate the yankees. ……….wen i started learning more about it, i couldnt possibly like any team that the braves played and i learned about ted williams so i became a redsox fan too. it hasnt been an easy ride thru all those summers but i’m still there with both teams. when the barves and sox play, i try to just enjoy it for what it is but , because i’ve seen the braves so much more, i find myself rooting for them.
Marc,
I would trade one of our regulars where we have depth (shortstop was mentioned on purpose) and 4 or 5 prospects for Eric Bedard. THAT is win now. Its bold and it recognizes that Chipper and Smoltzie can’t perform at a high level forever. What the Diamondbacks did was what Schuerholz did for years. They traded potential (albeit a lot of it, but that is the cost of business these days) for proven performance and in the process have created separation from themselves and the rest of the National League. As for the crapshoot that has become the playoffs now how good do the D-backs look in a short series with 2 A+ starters on their staff? They were smart to target Haren not only because he is a better player but Oakland is a much savvier trading partner that would recognize that they needed to leverage their precious commodity for the future of the franchise. The Orioles won’t recognize that unfortunately but I would love to see the Braves try to extract Bedard from them.
If Steve Carroll is playing Maxwell Smart. Who is playing Agent 99? Man I had a super huge kid crush on Barbara Feldon. She was hot.
Well, I don’t think it should matter what the age, sex, race, religion make-up of the Bravesjournal universe. It should just matter if we all talk about relevant and interesting things and have a good discussion.
If I was still single and out with some guy friends at a bar, THEN I would care if it was a “sausage fest” or whatever.
I liked Jenny in here overall because she was a good contributor.
However, I completely agree with Justin that it was completely annooying when she’d come in here and give “Red Sox updates”. I hated it.
I hate the Red Sox with a fiery passion and I don’t even like when my Red Sock friends or Red Sock colleagues want to constantly blah blah blah about the damned sox so Justin is 100% correct by calling out her coming in here to give updates on their games like we cared.
But, she had interesting takes and that’s the stuff I enjoyed discussing w/ her.
I keep forgetting that we have Mark Texiera too. Win now is even more imperative when you think of his contract situation. I’m sorry Alex but he isn’t going to fire Scott Boras,(BTW A-rod didn’t either) and he is going to ask for 100 million dollars. We will try but we won’t be able to re sign him.
The center field situation sucks but it ain’t the end of the world. The Braves know that we have an above average hitting infield at every position and our corner outfielders will hit at league average so we could carry a ‘defensive outfielder’ without too much problem.
jenny loved Marcus Giles and was vehemently against the Marte-Renteria trade. Aside from her Red Sox love and constant complaining about A-Rod and Peter Angelos, that’s really all I remember about her contributions. I have been surprised that she’s never made it back around these parts, though.
Also missing: LatNam. I should email him to find out if he just lurks or if he doesn’t come here any longer. Do you know, Dix?
Johnny,
I know I am in the minority, but I feel like we will make a concerted effort to keep Teixeira and can.
I liked Jenny too. When she started on the Red Sox thing I just didn’t read them.
I desparately hope you’re right, Alex.
I spoke to Latnam today. I don’t think he’s online much right now. I don’t even know if he has internet in his new apartment. He must, because he changed his FFL lineup last week, but he’s probably just on hiatus until the season starts anew.
GO SOX
Cool story about UGA/Hawaii football culture clash:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/uga/stories/2007/12/20/bowlga_1221.html
This makes me glad UGA is facing Hawaii instead of USC. Get to learn a little something.
Believe me, if Georgia was playing USC, there would still be a “culture clash”.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Stu. 😉
But Georgia plays USC every year! Oh, you mean Southern Cal.
That’s true, but it would be a well-chronicled culture clash. Who doesn’t know what SoCal is like? Can you imagine a scene like this in Pasadena:
The community, in a sense, has adopted this team. Jones estimated less than 1,000 student tickets are sold to games. Instead the crowd is “cab drivers, the maids, the working guy, the fireman, the policeman that comes to support our team,” he said.
@150, Marc, the obvious answer is YES.
Alex R. also believes that I single-handedly kept “his Dawgs” out of the BCS National Championship game… even though he really didn’t want to be there because, well, it’s a mythical championship whenever UGA is not involved, and he prefers to simply finish in the top 5, and those grapes are probably sour anyway.
I didn’t even get around to completely dispelling the myth of Georgia’s season-ending “hot streak,” so how could I have done all that? Really.
Huh?
Johnny,
I don’t disagree with your general point. I think we can disagree on how much is too much but, in general, I think the Braves, and the NL in general, need to be more aggressive. I do think it’s a good sign when more AL players come to the NL, like Teixera and Haren because it has seemed for a while that the AL brings in the best NL players (like Josh Beckett).
But, also, part of being aggressive involves scouting and signing players. That means, for example, paying over slot for players that you think are worth it, which is what the Tigers have done and, of course, what the Sox and Yankees do. I read an article in Hard Ball Times Annual that described the patterns of all the teams relative to payroll and the Braves were listed as non-aggressive. Now, part of that is that they have the Georgia connection and these guys want to play for the Braves so they don’t have to pay over slot, but I think the idea that the Braves are doing whatever is necessary to win is not correct. They are trying to build a team that is “good enough” not necessarily the best.
And, Alex, as far as the Red Sox “buying” their titles, I don’t agree. It’s not as if they sign up every free agent. Obviously, they have a huge payroll and they use it–just like the Braves used to use their payroll to keep the Big Three together when they actually spent money. And the Red Sox have done an excellent job of building their farm system. I understand the dislike of Red Sox Nation because they have gotten pretty obnoxious, but the Red Sox are pretty much a model organization–and, yes, they have a lot more money to spend and they spend it. That’s what teams should do for their fans but most don’t, especially in the NL.