AP Wire | 02/20/2006 | Langerhans works to keep starting role
Once again, it will show that the Braves aren’t being serious.
Bobby mentions two “longshot” pitchers, Jose Ascanio and Chad Paronto, as having made impressions. Paronto is listed at 250 pounds (so he must weigh at least 265) and spent last year with the Brewers organization. Have we learned nothing? Ascanio is just 21 and apparently throws very hard, and as I recall Bobby liked him last year too, but he was pretty terrible (and, I think, hurt) last year at Myrtle Beach.
I love Bobby Cox, but his blind loyalty to certain players can sometimes be a problem. Nevermind the fact that Horacio Ramirez is probably going to make the rotation, despite the fact that Davies and James are near MLB-ready. But someone needs to tell him that Brian Jordan just doesn’t have it anymore. He has no business making this team. His meager .239 avg against righties is horrendous, especially considering he had 155 ABs against them. Seriously, what business did he have getting that many ABs against right-handers. And his average against lefties (.263) is nothing that Langerhans or KJ couldn’t accomplish. He’s lost about 10 steps, and he’s as fragile as a china plate. He shouln’t even be considering Jordan as an option. Someone from upstairs needs to sit him (Cox) down and explain to him that all of Jordan’s once exquisite baseball skills have left his body. To include him on the roster is an absolute waste.
I think JS has the final say on who stays and who goes, and I think maybe this is just a goodwill gesture for Jordan turning down arbitration. Now that Leo is gone hopefully all the bad roster decisions are gone too.
Dustin, one of the main reasons Braves players would walk through a wall for Bobby is because of his loyalty to them. Keep in mind you can’t have it both ways.
Gosh I hope Sid Bream and Jeff Tredway make the team.
No, I agree Michael, but at some point you have to cut your losses. I can at least understand him giving the shot last year, but not this year. Not after his performance last year. Good point nonetheless.
And is there no loyalty to Langerhans and Johnson?
He won’t make the team, unless he hit .400 in ST. Ofcourse, he will only see fastballs down the middle, so he might.
If Brian Jordan hits .400 in spring trading, they should trade him for Preston Wilson!
I would ask where the loyalty is to me but I’m too busy eating live kittens.
Brian Jordan is an established major league ballplayer who is clearly winding down his career. He’s popular in Atlanta with teammates and fans (some of us, anyway), and he’s shown loyalty to the team. Remember it was Jordan who went to Rome for 4 or 5 games this past season to rehab and never complained….he said all the right things (to the media anyway) about doing whatever it takes to prove he’s healthy. By contrast, Chipper Jones (who I absolutely respect as a leader of the team) did nothing but complain and make it clear he wasn’t staying in A ball… he hopped a plane and went to New York. It’s not necessarily the results of each man’s actions that I’m pointing out, but it’s the actions themselves. I like Chipper, but he gave the impression that he was too good to go to single A to rehab, which I guess he is. But not Jordan…he accepted the assignment and worked hard to get back without complaint. And yeah, I know Chipper went to be with the team and worked hard, too….but that wasn’t what he was asked to do. Jordan deserves more respect and loyalty than Johnson and Langerhans because of what he’s meant for baseball, the Braves, and the city of Atlanta during his tenure(s) here.
I realize loyalty to Brian Jordan won’t bring a championship to Atlanta, and I’m not saying he should be given a spot on the roster because of it. I do think, however, he deserves a fair shot to prove himself either way-that he’s done or that he’s got something left. I’m speculatiing here, of course, but my guess is that if the back-up in left field isn’t Brian Jordan, it will probably be Matt Diaz. Where does that leave Kelly Johnson? What loyalty will he be shown by the team? I’d personally like to see Jordan have a good spring, win the 4th outfielder’s spot, and let Diaz go to Richmond as insurance in case Jordan falls apart, in which case I hope he’d retire gracefully. That still leaves out Kelly Johnson, but what do you do?
At the Hot Stove deal in Rome, some guy asked Marcus Giles if he was going to take the money and run when he comes up for free agency. Giles said all the nice things you’d expect, but it’s interesting to me that we want loyalty from the players and not from the organization. I like it that JS and Bobby are giving Jordan a chance. If you believe what you read, Jordan’s surgery was very successful. If he’s healthy, he can be a tremendous asset to the team as a backup outfielder and clubhouse leader.
Clearly, I’m in Jordan’s corner!
Yeah Mac, Ascaino was hurt last year. Tommy John i believe
I think Diaz is out of options (which is why the Royals ditched him) so the Braves have to either put him on the 25-man or lose him. Johnson’s the player whose spot Jordan would take.
In response to a small portion of second bass’s post, you can call me a pessimist, but I’m starting to believe that Marcus Giles may run off to the Left Coast at the first opportunity, which I guess would be after next year (someone correct me if I’m wrong). Some of the things he’s said seem to indicate that to me. Plus his and his wife’s entire families are out there. It unfortunately makes sense. I hope I’m wrong.
Jordan should have hung them up after last season. His knees are gone, he can’t run well. He can’t run down balls in the gap. I like Jordan, but I wish he would hang them up, he is done.
If Chipper Jones wants to rehab in Atlanta, Rome, my back yard, or with the Texas Rangers; he has earned that right. He wanted to get back to the team as soon as he could, becasue a hurt Chipper Jones is better than no Chipper Jones. I never heard of Brian Jordan taking any form of a paycut to sign free angents or try to keep guys on the team.
I wish Brian well on his real estate venture, but he is only taking at bats away from guys like KJ and Langerhands. Those AB’s are much more important for their growth than Jordan’s last ditch come back effort. He hasn’t been healthy really ever, he is oging to go down by the third week of the season.
Jordan is a great leader, but the Braves club house is full of leaders. In fact there may be to many.
I think the Braves should let him make a go at it, but if he doesn’t show anything early, then you have to cut him to let the young guys battle it out. It would be the fair thing form the young guys, the Braves, and to Jordan, who could try to catch on with another team.
I was relatively hopeful that Jordan would contribute last year, but he didn’t much at all. It seems like last year should have been his last.
The only logical explanation that I can give for Cox keeping Jordan this year is that Johnson would need more work in the minors – a distinct possibility. I would think if Jordan hits .300 to .400 in the spring and they determine Johnson doesn’t need additional minor league duty, Jordan will work his way onto another team.
Jordan is still a very good baserunner, even though he’s lost his speed; he compensates by never making a mistake. (He wasn’t thrown out on the bases at all last season while doing a good job advancing on hits.) His range factors are still pretty good, too. That’s not nearly enough to make up for his bat, though.
I guess what I’m saying is that (like Eddie Perez) Jordan shouldn’t hang up his uniform, just that he should be wearing it as a coach from now on.
I think Jordan would be a great coach. What ever happened to Charlie O’Brien? I think he would be a great coach, if he isn’t already
Exactly. I don’t think Jordan is showing any loyalty to the Braves in any meaningful way by pretending that he deserves the roster spot over KJ. The Braves don’t owe him what he doesn’t deserve. If he were truly dedicated to the team, he would at least consider that his most valuable contribution to the team by far would be as a minor league coach or, temporarily, as a player/informal leader-type. I hope he comes to his senses and stays with us in that capacity.
I don’t think it’s Jordan’s responsibility to objectively assess his ability to play. That’s the job of the front office and the manager. If he thinks that he can still play, then he should give it his best shot. That said, if the Braves don’t think he can play, they should not give him a roster spot. That’s how the situation should work. Jordan shouldn’t feel obligated, out of loyalty to the Braves or anything else, to make any particular decision about his career. He should do what he wants and let the chips fall as they may.
What he’s doing is completely understandable in my opinion. He’s a baseball player and he doesn’t want the game to end yet. I know I feel the same way, and I never played past Little League. Baseball does that to people. So I say let Jordan give it a shot in spring training. It probably won’t work out. He probably shouldn’t be on the Opening Day roster. But all of that is not his concern, it’s the concern of Bobby Cox, John Schuerholz, etc. I hope that when it inevitably doesn’t work out he can find a place in the organization.
Does anyone on here have any opinions about Lerew for closer? It sounds like he really wants the job. It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Just for clarification, I do think he should retire, because I doubt that he has anything left. I just don’t think that he owes any loyalty to the Braves or anyone else to retire if he doesn’t want to, or doesn’t think he’s done yet. That said, I also don’t think the Braves owe him a roster spot. Jordan and the Braves both just need to do whatever is in their own interests and everyone will have gotten a fair deal.
Maxwn, I agree with you.
‘Rissa, I think that’s a great idea for closer, but I seriously doubt that Lerew has much chance of getting it; they didn’t seem to want to put the ball in his hands last year. Like Mac, I think the job will probably end up being his, and Reitsma will go back to being a (hopefully not overworked) setup man.
Not that I don’t think Lerew would do a good job; I just think that he’s perceived as not being ready, which is why they didn’t give him a chance even during the stretch run.
That guy’s all heart, man…
Jenny—I agree, I think Marcus Giles is as good as gone when the time comes, and I can’t blame him either. Another thing I personally like to see is a player put family concerns over money, team, etc.
And Smitty, like I said, I respect Chipper, especially for taking the pay cut, which, incidentally, happened after he went to Rome. Plus, Chipper didn’t go north and help the team….he continued to sit on the bench until he was ready. He didn’t like being part of a minor league team, and I agree he deserves to do what he wants, but my point is that Jordan stuck it out, and I like that about him.
And Mac, I didn’t realize Diaz was out of options. I still think there’s a chance that won’t change things. It’s sounding like Jurries might get a spot to platoon with Laroche at first (I think Laroche deserves a full time shot myself), and I think Bobby will want a right-handed platoon guy with Langerhans. If that’s the case, we could see Johnson traded….maybe packaged with HoRam or Thomson before the end of spring training. For what, I don’t know. I suppose I don’t really know anything….speculatuion, you know!
Second bass, if I remember right, Chipper went north to join the team in NYC instead of staying in Rome because the games at Rome were rained out, and Chipper didn’t want to test his legs on a wet field which could potentially make his injury worse. Please correct me if I have mistaken.
In respect of Marcus, it’s still two years away before he hits FA. So, I am not worrying about that too much. However, Marcus’ and Andruw’s contracts are up during the same off-season, perhaps JS will leave that to Dayton Moore to sort that out.
Ascanio didn’t have tommy john surgery. He had two hairline fractures in his back, one that didn’t heal correctly.
The problem with letting Bobby decide in spring training whether Jordan deserves to be on the team is that whatever Jordan does in spring training will have no predictive value on what he does the rest of the year. Last year, I joined with others hoping that Jordan would look bad in ST so that he wouldn’t catch on with the team; instead, he did make the team and ended up hurting it for two months (to the tune of .247/.295/.338, aka this guy’s career line.
Why would he be any better this year? It would be a shame if Matt Diaz had to be let go to make room for Jordan, but I’d get over it; it would be a travesty if the same happened to Kelly Johnson. Is loyalty to a broken-down shell of a player worth casting aside valuable young talent? I don’t think so.
I have to hope that Bobby was just being nice. The Braves invited BJ to camp just because of all the good stuff second bass mentioned. If Bobby gives BJ significant playing time this spring then his brain should be examined. Johnson and Langerhans are much better players at this point. I think that Johnson should be given every opportunity to be the starter because I think that he is the best hitter of the Left Field candidates.
Loyalty? I don’t fault players for being ‘disloyal’. Rafael Furcal, more power to him. He is exercising his right to get his fair market value. The Braves, smart to cut ties with Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and Javy Lopez. Its a business.
Second bass the one thing that I totally disagree with you on is that Jordan can be an asset. He hasn’t played even close to replacement level for 4 seasons.
I have a friend who is a Mets fan (SOMEDAY he’ll pay me back for my comments the last 6 years {I’ve not know him the entire Braves run}), and he sent me a column from the NY Daily news about Julio & Glavine. I don’t know how to do the tags so I’m going to outline the excerpt {begin excerpt} {end excerpt} – I was disappointed by some of these comments, particularly in light of some folks around here wishing Glavine would come back to ATL to finish his career.
{begin excerpt}
By now it’s clear that no matter how much money they spend, the Mets will need a miracle to finally overtake the Braves and win the NL East. So maybe this is the year, as they now have their very own Miracle Man in Julio Franco, whom the Mets wanted badly enough at age 47 to give him a two-year contract.
It sounds like a punch line of sorts, but the Mets insist they had to give him two years to lure him away from – who else? – the Braves.
…
Tom Glavine, who was supposed to help turn the tide when he defected from the Braves four years ago, instead has come to understand the pain the Braves have caused this franchise.
“When a team is that successful, everybody gets sick of them winning,” Glavine said yesterday. “I’m like everybody else here: as players, you’re tired of them winning, and you want to be part of a team that beats them.”
Franco, on the other hand, doesn’t quite get what the angst is all about. He arrived yesterday for spring training wearing a Braves’ T-shirt, of all things, and wore it around the clubhouse for an hour or so, leaving PR man Jay Horwitz in need of oxygen before he finally changed into Mets gear.
Glavine had to remind Franco the Braves are the bad guys here. “I gave him some (grief) about it,” he said.
…
In other words, he’s not doing this with magic, and maybe that’s a message the Mets should take from him. They have all the talent they need this year, but need to develop whatever intangibles that have fueled the Braves’ 14-year run of titles.
Glavine, who should know, believes it’s critical.
“I really believe a big part of (the Braves’) success is that they just have a belief that they’re going to win,” Glavine said. “That belief permeates the entire organization, and the difference is that other teams are hoping they’re going to win. We’ve got the talent to beat them this year, but we’ve gotta do what they’re so good at doing, which is going out and making it happen.”
The Mets have tried everything else over the last two decades. Maybe Franco is the miracle they need to finally make it happen.
{end excerpt}
I know that’s not saying Glavine is a hater and all that (and he definitely does have to play up to the NY press) – but there is definitely no indicator in those comments that there is anything left from his ties with the Braves.
Glavine used to be my favorite player, but now I see him for what he is; batting practice for Chipper Jones.
Well, right now somewhere in Orlando, Bobby Cox is giving “The Speach.” I would like to sit in, just to see what it is that he says and how he acts.
Haha Smitty, I pretty sure you didn’t mean to but I love that you called it “The Speach”. I mean they do play in the Peach State right?
Someone should tell Tommy G, that winning isn’t simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Otherwise, every team in the league would have won the WS by now.
I have no problem with Glavine. His career path suits me just fine.
dont forget about david kelton. once a top prospect in the cubs organization and in baseball..he started out as a second baseman, then to third..and the past couple of years the outfield and a little first base..the guy has solid numbers..and can play anywhere but pitcher/catcher(probably could but doesnt, he was a pitcher in high school) anyway he may be in the running for the 5th outfield/back-up first base spot..there hasnt been much talk about him but i think he could be the sleeper for a roster spot.
Most players with ten years experience with a team, when they ultimately do leave the team that raised them, dont alientate as many fans in the process as Glavine has. I think there’s just something about the Braves that has made people think players should stay with them if at all possible and prevents them from understanding why anyone would ever leave of their own accord. Winning apparently isn’t everything to the players in the majors. If it was, no one would take the money to play for the Mets, they’d go to the Yankee’s instead.
what you talkin bout willis? I want a piece of jordan for the outfield.
Chipper’s stay in Rome was under rainy conditions. He played in at least 2 games there, but he went north because he didn’t want to hit the road with the Rome team as they were about to do. His last game there was rained out. He cut his stay with the team short to go to New York….Again, I understand his rationale and his right to do what he wants. My point was (is) that I appreciate Jordan staying in Rome to finish out his assignment. For what it’s worth, Jordan played in a Sunday double header in miserable heat in Rome in front of maybe 500 fans before it was over. A humbling experience, I’d guess.
Jordan didn’t really have a choice. We weren’t exactly aching for his return. We were, on the other hand, ready for the return of Chipper to our lineup. As a productive major-leaguer, Chipper had more leverage in that decision. Jordan had no leverage. Who’s to say that Jordan would have done the same thing 5 years ago? Knowing Jordan, he probably would have, but comparing Chipper and Jordan last year was like comparing apples and oranges.
is it just me or is that val girl from junkin pretty hot?and does dave look like a young steve bedrosion?
What’s the big deal about Glavine? He’s supposed to try to beat the Braves. It’s no different from Johnny Damon going from the Red Sox to the Yankees. Glavine wants to win and he is no longer a Brave. It wouldn’t necessarily preclude him from coming back if that was appropriate.
Re: Jordan, I think a lot of people are getting really worked up about something that is NOT going to happen. Honestly, Jordan has only a slightly better chance to make the roster than Eddie does. Kyle pointed out his line last year (ouch), and even if he was kinda hurt then and is better now, is that better than KJ? He’d have to hit like .600 with 8 bombs in ST to make the team, and I think at that point nobody would be arguing with giving him another shot. I guess what I’m trying to say is, CALM DOWN. Worry about more important things, like who’s going to fill out the bullpen, or how Giles is going to do leading off (fwiw, Furcal says he’s not gonna like it; I think it’ll be OK), or what kind of seasons Hudson or Sosa or Renteria or Francoeur will have.
I ordinarily don’t have problems with Glavine’s career path. I don’t blame him whatsoever. It’s the comments he made struck me as awkward. It’s almost as if he’s trvializing the successes of the Braves organization. It’s almost as if he’s discounting the hard work, and great scouting involved in this run, and by simply believing they can beat the Braves, they should be able to do so. I have no beef with the man for wanting to beat the Braves, but those comments irked me.
It’s no different from Johnny Damon going from the Red Sox to the Yankees.
At the risk of being assaulted by justin for typing the word “Boston,” I’ll say that I disagree here. I don’t think the Braves-Mets rivalry is on the same level as that one. Glavine could come back. I don’t think Damon could or would.
And even if Jordan hit .600 with 8 HR in ST, I would still argue against him being on the roster. He is done. Cooked. Stick a fork in him and all those other cliches. I don’t want him back just as a “clubhouse guy,” and absolutely not at the expense of Kelly Johnson or Matt Diaz. You can have “clubhouse guy” specialists: they are called coaches, or special assistants, or towelboys, or something. And they don’t waste roster space.
As I said in my post, and as jenny ably explains, I don’t want Jordan on the 25-man roster no matter what his ST stats are. If he goes 25 for 25 with 25 home runs, I will still be in favor of excluding him! Maybe I’m just crazy.
Mac,
Is the draft date of the Braves Fantasy League set in stone? I have a wedding to attend AND a Law Prom (Barrister’s Ball) to attend that Saturday, and I absolutely hate not being there for drafts.
I understand that I’m only one person, but if there’s another time that works for everybody else, too, I’d really appreciate you considering moving it.
Maybe he can bring in Erin Andrews for a walk-on tryout down in Kissimmee. She has power to all fields, and is batting .300 against my heart. On the downside, she is 0 – 20 with me in scoring position. Perhaps she needs to be less selective at the plate for a guy like me to have a chance. Am I throwing in enough baseball innuendo in here for you fellas?
You are really weird.
jac, others may hate, but i appreciate. just letting you know.
—
my aunt con, a big baseball fan (from whom i stole my erstwhile fantasy team name ‘Sturgeon Generals’ [get it? it’s like Surgeon General, except Sturgeon, which is my last name; clever eh?]), hates erin andrews with a passion. she used to complain about her vociferously during the erin-TBS era. can’t say i blame her.
someone mentioned charlie o’brien. he coaches a team of 13 or 14 year olds here (tulsa, ok). i think it’s his son’s team, but anyway, he’s nuts. threatened an ump i know with a baseball bat after being ejected from a game last year.
the team is really good though, for what it’s worth.
I don’t know Kyle. If he went 25 for 25 with 25 homers, I think I would keep him around until he missed one. But I agree that realistically whatever he does in ST is irrelevant and he shouldn’t be on the roster. But if somehow he comes out of ST with a line of 1.000/1.000/4.000 (I think that’s right), I say give him a shot. At least until his OPS drops below 3.000 or something.
I was joking (sort of) but his spring numbers wouldn’t carry over! He’d have an OPS of .000 his first at bat on opening day, just like everyone else.
Of course, if he has a 5.000 OPS in ST, I will have my name legally changed to “Brian Jordan Is My Daddy”. So his presence on the big league roster would be the least of my worries.
jac, erin is 0-20 when I’m in scoring position too. She really need to step up her game.
As for that Mets article, I only have one thing to say:
I
Heart
Julio
I also still like Glavine a lot. No hard feelings here and I don’t think there should be. He’s a Met now, of course he wants to beat us, it also would probably have added something (been kinda cool for him) if our streak ended after he left. I hope he retires as a Brave though. I’d like to see him come back to the team for a year. I do think being on the Mets has cost him several (more than several) wins, but he’ll do well this year.
since you didn’t start it jenny, I’ll let it slide this time.
I think we sent Julio to sabotage the Mets
By the way, I don’t know if you all knew this, but Jac Holzman is the legendary founder of Elektra Records, a seminal label in rock and folk music.
However, if you do a google search for “Jac Holtzman” (with a t) you will notice that Kyle S is third from the top of the page.
Way to popularize Braves Journal with your psychotic crush on Erin Andrews, Jac! Keep up the good work!
Briefly noted… They’re now the Nonamespos.
Er, Jac, if Erin is 0-20 with you in scoring position, perhaps you should try the suicide squeeze. Of course, these days you might want to protect yourself and go for the safety squeeze instead.
Perhaps Erin isn’t very good in the clutch. You could take some of the pressure off by moving her down in the order.
It could be that Erin can’t handle the high hard one. If you’d stop trying to steal bases, perhaps she’d get a curveball she could get around on.
By the way, Bobby Cox admits that he serially overuses Chris Reitsma.
As much as I don’t want Brian Jordan to make the team this year, I don’t have a problem with him getting his shot. The only reason for this is spectacular catch he made during the divison series versus Houston. Who knows if Lange would have made that catch, I’m just glad BJ came through for us one time all of last year.
from the jac holtzman google search:
“Warner’s e-label will be headed by noted music figure Jac Holtzman, a technophile who pushed early adoption of the compact disc, the LaserDisc and now can be spotted in Warner’s New York offices with a flash drive dangling from his neck. Since his e-label starts with modest production budgets of about $30,000, rather than millions, Holtzman is free to sign more eclectic acts, like Devo bassist Jerry Casale’s new group, Jihad Jerry and the Evildoers.”
Question – how did that post by me get to be 2nd in the rankings? Weird.
Speaking of weird Google searches, I did one for a guy I knew in high school who just won a Rhodes scholarship, and guess what the first image hit was?
Him drunk at a party in a Duke dorm room with J.J. Redick. link. With the caption “What a cute young fan.” The guy is 22.
Talk about Twilight Zone moments.
Redick is such a tool…
I wonder if JJ knows that shirt is 2 sizes to big?
Speaking of people being nuts (david15 was) and Twilight Zone, has anybody seen what Darren Daulton said recently? Jim Rome was talking about him yesterday, apparently he was talking all kinds of crazy – people are made of energy, he has more than 5 senses, a whole bunch of other stuff that I wish I could remember.
OK, I was too curious so I went ahead and looked for it. Here’s an article about what he said. Oooooo-weeeeee-oooooooo.
Of course, Rome closed the Daulton segment in classic style – “Double D says that he’s not crazy and he doesn’t want people thinking he is. Yeah. Right. Except that you are. And I do.” Gotta love Rome.
Ha, just to clarify, I didn’t mean that david15 was nuts, but that he was talking about someone being nuts. 🙂
NMS and Smitty–drinking that hatorade.
Still, I wonder whether that the beer he’s drinking is a sharp thorn that cuts his soul.
Stu? Law Prom? Man, I am old (and have never been to Law School).
Someone mentioned Lerew in the pen. I like the idea. Football mentality (QB/P recruited by Joe Pa). When I saw him pitch last season, the first comparison in my mind was Steve Bedrosian, another minor league starter who found success in the pen at the big league level.
And as the Myrtle Beach fan mentioned, it was Ascanio’s back. I hear you on Paronto. Probably this year’s Bernero. Okay in the 11th or 12th spot so you can allow a younger guy to develop at AA or AAA, but no one to rely upon too heavily.