ESPN – Braves vs. Phillies – Box Score – July 27, 2008
A lot happened in this one. The main thing is that Brian McCann left the game after being hurt on a collision at home plate with Satan Shane Victorino. My initial thought was that it was a concussion, but X-rays were taken of Brian’s neck. If he had a neck injury, it is yet again evidence of the incompetence of the Braves training staff, as they let him walk off the field. (UPDATE: Carroll at the AJC says that the X-rays are negative and that Brian has a mild concussion. If you’ve followed the doing in the NFL over the last couple of decades, or for that matter in Queens this year, you’ll know that (a) sports teams aren’t always the best judges of such things, and (b) there is no such thing as a “mild” concussion. They call it a “concussion” because it sounds nicer than BRUISED BRAIN. This season is over; there is no reason to rush him back.)
Victorino, when he wasn’t playing overly hard and getting our best players hurt, was doing his usual kill-the-Braves routine, including a three-run homer. The game was delayed for nearly two hours with two out in the bottom of the second. When play resumed, Jorge Campillo, one of the Braves’ better pitchers, had been replaced by Jo-Jo Reyes, who is not. The Braves went out to 5-0 lead with two runs in the first and back-to-back homers by KJ and Infante in the fourth, but Reyes gave up two homers in the bottom of the fourth to tie it. Tavarez (who got the loss) gave up a solo shot in the fifth, then Ring and Boyer did what they did yesterday and allowed a bunch of runs — five, this time — in the sixth. Carlyle gave up one in the seventh.
The Braves actually rallied, loading the bases in the eighth and then — amazingly — getting runs out of the situation. Infante doubled in a run, Blanco walked with the bases loaded, and then Prado (pinch-hitting for Carlyle, in Teixeira’s spot after he’d been double-switched out in an apparent lost cause) hit a flare that turned into a bases-clearing double thanks to a Prado by the right fielder. That was it, though. Francoeur, who sucks, did walk with one out in the ninth (one of two on the day, but I have decided that his walks are totally random events that occur when he decides not to swing, and not evidence of judgment) but that was it.
I hate this team.
I have an intense dislike for Shane Victorino.
Two walks, but zero Runs Produced.
Now that is a good burn.
I am seriously thinking of adding “runs produced” to the spam filter.
lulz @ 2…I hope for McCann’s sake they put him on the DL and sell. Might not be a bad idea for Jurrjens to stub his tow and go on the DL too in a month or so. If the team spirals down too far perhaps the 1st round pick will be protected in the event we sign a Type A Free Agent (ha.)
I have no idea what a “Run Produced” is. Could someone help me out?
you might also add ricflair after his mature commentary at the end of the last thread
Victorino has 35 RBI on the year, 13 against the Braves. He’s hit 8 HR this year, 3 against the Braves.
If I was a Catcher, I would give muthafuckers The Boot. Let me explain.
If a baserunner is bearing down on my blind side with a throw coming in, instead of getting laid out like McCann and every other catcher, I would stop tracking the ball, kick my Boot into the baserunner’s head, thus laying HIM out, and then casually stroll over to pick the ball up by the backstop, walk back and tag HIS dead ass out wherever he lays on the baseline between 3B and homeplate.
Sure, it would result in a bench-clearing brawl for every other play at the plate, but it would highlight what a ludicrous rule this is. Home plate collisions should be banned.
So remember, Fear THE BOOT, mf’ers!
Chipper is probably going on the DL, unless he shows marked improvement tonight. Boyer really should go on the DL, because he’s obviously wasted. I don’t know if McCann really needs to, but should take the next few days off. Francoeur, of course, should be sent to the minors. Teixeira, Ohman, and Kotsay should be traded. Tavarez and Corky should be released. That’s better than a third of the roster that shouldn’t be around tomorrow.
Cary, the ridiculous thing is that catchers are allowed to block the plate. If they were required to act like other fielders, this wouldn’t happen. It isn’t really a rule, just something the umpires do.
Maybe Cary should be our backup catcher. It sounds like he’s got the right mentality, and he couldn’t be any worse than Corky.
“Runs produced” is probably the stupidest stat ever devised. It makes holds look smart. It’s R+RBI-HR.
Tavarez, Corky, and Francouer to the Royals for a subsidy on various team expenses, like toilet paper or vacuum cleaner bags
R + RBI-HR??? I can’t believe that joker was using that to defend Francouer. If you read this no offense man but that isn’t even a stat that’s a number. “Runs Produced” should be called “Runs Involved with on a some level”
Thanks, Mac. That is indeed an incredibly dumb stat. It looks as if it was designed to be dumb.
At # 7 whats your problem Lumpy?
Was the Victorino play a cheap shot, ala Erstad?
Do you attribute a Run Produced to one individual, or everyone who takes part in the, uh, Production of said Runs?
Ask Douglass he knows everything.
a some level=some level
Ric,
If you’re gonna post stupid shit, expect people like me to call you out on it. Same goes for greyson. If you don’t like it, maybe the internet isn’t the place for you. Deal with it. Say what you want about me, but at least I’m having discussions about the Braves. You’re just sniping people cuz your feelings are hurt.
Jeez, everybody calm down.
Runs Produced is an individual stat. It’s a bad stat for any number of reasons. I’m guessing that it was an attempt to unite “run scorers” and “run producers” (ie RBI guys).
And in answer to Adam’s question:
Everyone that takes part in it.
Another way of thinking about it is runs scored or batted in…you have to subtract the number of HR because it would count those numbers double if you didn’t (cuz a player gets both a run and rbi, even though only 1 run goes up on the scoreboard.)
So if you added up the individual totals of “runs produced” you would get closer to double the number of total runs scored than the actual number.
It’s not an entirely useless stat, but it certainly isn’t good for evaluating individual performance. Because, obviously, it’s dependent on the performance of the players in front of and behind the individual.
I love you Douglass.
I don’t know how Buster Olney is received on this site but here is what he just said on Baseball Tonight regarding Tex:
That we haven’t aggressively put Tex on the market yet but that we have had talks with several teams, the most serious coming with Arizona. That we demanded they include Conner Jackson in any deal and they said not a chance in hell. And finally that there is a large portion of people in our front office who are totally against trading Tex and want to keep trying to win this year.
19–wow a post without profanity–your vocabulary is bigger than I thought
If you can’t engage in a civil discussion, maybe you should take your own advice from 290 in the last thread:
ricflair Says:
July 27th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Douglass how about this. Fuck You Asshole!!
Is this your damn site? No so shut the hell up!! Anytime someone has something to say you do not agree with the world ends.
My bad Frank.
😥
Has anyone explained to folks who use RBI and this runs produced thingy as to why most folks here think it’s not a valid argument? Not trying to stir the muck just trying to be diplomatic.
A stat like Runs Batted In depends a lot on players besides the one who earns an RBI. It’s not like anyone is saying “getting a hit with someone on third doesn’t matter”. But how did that player get to third? The person with the RBI didn’t get him there. Just like player who scored a run, unless it’s a homer, depended on another player to drive him in. ( I know virtually everyone here knows this haha)
Wow!!!
Has anyone explained to folks who use RBI and this runs produced thingy as to why most folks here think it’s not a valid argument?
At least 5 times in the game thread from today.
How many games has Chipper played this year? Will he make his target 150? How about 140? Maybe 120?
Chipper says you can’t blame Bobby for the injuries. He says the main thing is winning. Give him his due, the boy’s a hitting machine and a better glove than he’s given credit for, but he’s one fragile dude.
He’ll probably never again play more games in a year than this year, so why not give him a chance go out on a winner? Waive him after the deadline, send him to the Yanks, Sawx, Cubs or Angels and get a boatload of good young prospects for him.
I know it’s blasphemy, but we suck with him. How much worse would we be without him? Just saying.
Considering Chipper has gone on the record saying that if he can’t play for the Braves he’d probably retire then I don’t think he’ll fetch much.
At least 5 times in the game thread from today.
Hahahaha well at least you’re fighting the good fight.
To whom it may concern (you know who you are): attempting to hijack another poster’s handle is a good way to get on my bad side.
The “deal”, as you put it, is that I can trace your IP address and I know who you are, so if you try to post under someone else’s name I’m not going to approve your comment.
I know that poor play from our boys brings out the worst in us, so I’ll recommend any combination of the three: Xanax, some soft music—The Carpenters, perhaps—or a David Sedaris book.
Thursday’s trade deadline is right around the corner folks. Om-m-m-m…
Personally, I’m on the side of selling Ohman, Tex, and others beyond our valuable core. I think it’s more compelling to see what we could get for them and how those pieces would help us win next year rather than watching this year’s team play just under .500 for the rest of the year.
If the comments about a good portion of the office are looking to hold on these players because they want to win this year, I wonder (not in a condescending way, but in a curious way) what makes them think that this team has a good chance in the NL East.
Can you imagine if we stand pat how feisty this board will be? We HAVE to sell.
Watching the rest of the NL East, is my guess.
40… Mac, very good point.
Maybe we can sell Ohman to Saturday Night Live. Lorne Michaels can finally have someone to be Harry Caray after Will Ferrell left.
Why not sell AND buy? Plan for 2009 now?
Trade Teixeira, Ohman and Kotsay.
Trade for Jason Bay.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/07/27/mccann_braves_injured.html
Mild concussion.
Trading for Bay now would be more costly in terms of prospects because we would have him for an additional half season. We don’t need Bay this season so it’d be pointless.
MCCANN UPDATE:
Mac is feeling much better and will be fine. He is expecting to miss 2-4 games. He is doing much better then he looked during that interview on FSS.
No worries on this guys, he will be fine.
The Pirates bargaining position will surely be a lot weaker at the end of the year with Burrell and Dunn on the free agent market. Matt Holliday might come into some teams price range as well, not to mention it seems Manny Ramirez will be available too.
Might I inquire as to what, exactly, the D-Backs would do with Jackson if they had Tex? I know they’re not guaranteed of signing him after the season, but they’re gonna sit Jackson on the bench for the rest of the year? Bet he’d be happy about that. I would say anybody who doesn’t wanna trade us their current first baseman plus prospects for him could forget about entering the discussion if I were the GM.
Jackson’s playing in left field at the moment, with Chad Trady at 1st.
Jackson has already playing leftfield since June.
It seems like we’d stand to acquire Tracy instead, if the DBacks are the target.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo;_ylt=AqD5cS8lPr.bjOUfWV.yvOOpu7YF?slug=82d0b1cbde31494dadc07a487e05928c.braves_phillies_baseball_patm112&prov=ap
According to Yahoo, our manager is Billy Cox…
And we really need to throw at someone on the Phillies next time we see them… or slide into first studs up.
Jackson for Teixeira straight up would be a pretty good trade. Jackson isn’t great, and I don’t know if he’d hit 15 homers a year in Atlanta — but he’s a good player who gets on base, and under team control for the next few years. He’s better than two draft picks.
Tracy, on the other hand, is two years older and at least one year closer to free agency, plus he isn’t nearly as good. His numbers this year are spiked by a high batting average that he really can’t sustain, and he’s not very impressive hitting .280 instead of .300.
For the record, I would LOVE to get Jackson for Tex. But if I were the D-Backs, I wouldn’t even think about doing it. Jackson is already their best hitter. His OPS is better than Tex’s this year. He can play outfield and 1b. He’s only 26 and is putting together his 3rd consecutive season productive season. He tore up the minor leagues. All signs point to him being a + bat for years to come and he only costs the Diamondbacks $400,000+ this year.
I still would rather re-sign Ohman, our bullpen is fragile to say the least.
Boy were bad.
I agree with you, Mac, that Jackson isn’t a “great” first baseman because of his lack of power. But honestly, I think that’s a bit of an overrated notion. Becaues he’s young, because he plays in Arizona, and because he hasn’t had an “epic” season yet, I feel guys like Jackson are vastly underrated. I’ll take .902 OPS from first base any way you slice it, especially that price. And while you could make a case that he’s overachieving right now, looking at his stats, I think it’s just as likely that he’ll continue to put up these numbers for the forseeable future. I like him, and probably wouldn’t even trade him straight up if I were the D-Backs. (though Tex is definitely the better player right now, he’s also a lot more expensive.)
I’d make the straight-up trade. I might make a Jackson for Teixeira and Ohman trade.
I wouldn’t be suprised if the Braves still go after Jason Bay. They tried to acquire him last year with no luck. He is signed next year at 11 million and would essentially take the place of Tex next year. He would provide some pop in the OF.
Another thing i’ve heard is considering bringing back LaRoche next year at a resonable price (2 million). Again, it’s early but these are some rumblings i’ve heard.
Considering Mac’s injury today isn’t as serious as first thought i’d say it really didn’t make a difference if they are sellers or buyers.
just go ahead and blow this team up. these guys are never going to win. seriously, change , if only for changes sake. is needed. release the entire outfield and call up the best we have on the farm. send McCann on an extended rehab in Tahiti or the isle of his choice. dump the beloved KJ and put Yunel on a raft with a compass that only points south. now that the pitchers seem to have re-entered the atmosphere in slightly charred condition, just clean house there too. what do we have to lose? personally, i’d rather be be 62-100 with a bunch of kids that watch this present bunch go 70-92. and, at some point , its time to focus our wrath on the real culprits here. exactly who is responsible for the once enviable farm system being so empty? its fairly clear that Frenchy is a symptom, not the disease. its time to aim a bit higher, boys.
dump the beloved KJ and put Yunel on a raft with a compass that only points south.
At the risk of being combative, not only is that stupid, it’s racist.
too f’ing bad. sorry about your delicate sensibilities. no, scratch that………i couldnt care less. and last time i checked, Cubans( of which i count many friends) arent a race.,
I only ban for a few things, but racism is one of them.
LaRoche? Great, then we could have two dummies in the everyday lineup. He and Francoeur could sit on the bench together and discuss cartoons.
I’d rather have LaRoche and Bay over whoever else we would have at 1b and Blanco/Diaz next year.
After todays debacle, you gotta trade Tex, Ohman, Kotsay and anyone else they take.
If McCann is out, does that mean we get full time Corky?!
njbravesfan, Mac is only out for 2-4 games, it’s nothing long term.
Depends upon whoever would be at first base. I’d rather have Conor Jackson, if that were possible. LaRoche is a profoundly ordinary player, a guy who doesn’t do anything really well. You can win with a guy like that — you need guys like that — but he’s no star. The Pirates got totally rooked in that deal, even if Gonzalez did miss a season.
I guess I can’t stop people from talking about Conor Jackson, but I would say it’s more likely the Braves would trade Tex for Michael Jackson, rather than CoJack. Look, I would throw a block party if it happened, but there is no chance. They wouldn’t have traded for Tony Clark to back up Chad Tracy if they planned on shifting Tracy to the bench and trading CoJack for Tex.
Chad Tracy and Jarrod Parker with another minor league arm would be a decent enough haul for Tex as far as I’m concerned.
I’m all for seeing if Tex and Ohman could get Loney and something else from the Dodgers. I feel that would be the best deal out there, but Frank McCourt seems to not want to add any payroll, which baffles me.
This is why I hate the “buyers or sellers” thing. Bay would be a good fit for us regardless of whether we were “buyers” or “sellers”. He’s a good-hitting OF on a team with no good-hitting OFs (unless you count Kotsay), and I believe he’s signed through ’09. He’d help us this year and next year, so he’d be someone we’d get if we were “buyers” or “sellers”. Why can’t it just be that we’re trying to make our team better? Why does it have to be that we’re dismantling or building?
I, like Mac, would also do a Conor Jackson for Teixera trade, and might even give them Ohman too. Conor’s the kind of player we should be looking for, even with a lack of power. We’ve got more than enough at places you usually don’t get power (catcher, third base, second base, even short stop a little).
Ok, thakns for the info on Mac, but Concussions are tough, you dont want to rush ANYONE back from a concussion, let alone our best guy right now.
Look at Church from the Mets, he has been bothered by it all season.
Mac is too good to let come back too soon!
I am sicked of seeing McCann getting killed at the plate, can the team seriously consider moving him to first base?
Thats a great point KC, he is really our best most consistant player, and he is clutch and he is steadily becomming our leader,
we want to protect him
move him to first and bring in a catcher!
What I said about LaRoche applies to Tracy as well, except that Tracy makes $4 million this year and will probably make $5 million next. You just can’t pay that much money for an ordinary player. Throw in that he’s been injury-prone, and it’s no way.
kc, he will not be moved to 1b. The team nor Brian want to move to 1b. Brian simply loves catching and understands that these things happen.
nj, Brian’s concussion is no where near Church’s.
The Braves might consider moving McCann, but look at the franchise depth chart at catcher. It’s an atrocity. Flowers is the only player between the majors and rookie ball who looks like even an adequate backup.
Ok glad to hear it!
I live, obviously in NJ, and dont get all the news about my beloved bravos,
But I do know from listening to WFAN up here, they killed the mets for not being careful with Church,
Just making sure we are careful with our stud!
Thanks for the update on McCann, Jake. And I’d like the team to trade for Bay, but he can’t just be a replacment for Tex. The Braves need outfield power as well as first base power–or at least a more than ordinary first baseman, to adopt a bit of Mac’s phrasing.
Here’s some wishful thinking: The team calls up Clint Sammons for a few days, he shows he is better than Corky (by going 3-13) and the Hamster gets flushed. Amirite?
Josh, I think thats a good plan and possibility.
Mac, I wouldn’t hold your breath on moving him, even if we had a player to catch. Like I already said, he has NO desire to move to 1b at this point in his career.
#43 – thats what I would do
Trade Jones, Lilli, and Chuck for Jason Bay
Trade Tex and Ohman for Loney, Kotchman, or Jackson and spare parts
Trade Frenchy for Grienke
Trade Kotsay for a decent reliever or backup catcher
Offseason plans go after Sheets and Adam Dunn with everything you can. None of this will happen, but it would be rather nice to see this lineup
Yunel
KJ
Chipper
BMac
Bay
Loney/Kotchman/Jackson
Dunn
Anderson/Blanco/Schafer
with a rotation of
Sheets, Hudson, Jair, Grienke and others
thoughts of why this wouldnt work out?
ha 3-13 is a VAST improvement! Thats sorry for the hamster!
The problem with the Braves are there are just too many holes.
Trading Tex and Ohman and Kotsay might be able to help fill some of these.
We have a hole at all three outfield positions. You could say of our current group you might have one decent choice to man Center, but you still need power and production from your corner outfield spots.
You need a new first basemen without tex.
You need reliable starters.
You need Bullpen help.
You need a fill in for Chipper during his many DL stints,
You need a backup catcher.
You need a good left handed bat off the bench.
Thats just my take
The worst part of not having Teixeira or another proven first baseman set for 2009 as of yet: the “move Chipper to first” and “move McCann to first” crowd will be back.
We all got a nice break last offseason from it with Teixeira being at first. But if the Braves stand pat, and the Braves go into the offseason with no clear first baseman for 2009, we could all be in for a lot of long, pointless (they’re not moving Chipper OR McCann) arguments.
Dan, neither will move, they have earned the right to play at their positions.
He may not have the desire… but it would be best for him to move, and best for the team if they had an adequate replacement. He’s a special hitter, and the wear and tear of catching can damage that, plus the team suffers when he’s not in the lineup.
I spent several years saying that the Braves shouldn’t move Javy Lopez to first base, because he wasn’t a good enough hitter to be a plus at that position. McCann, however, is a much better hitter than Lopez.
80 — we’d never get Grienke for Frenchy. But that would be sweet. It seems that the window to acquire him (if there ever was one) is well past.
I agree 100% with Mr Thomason
Trade Frenchy for Grienke
It’s an interesting idea, I guess. I get the thinking: highly touted prospects who have underachieved in their young careers. But do we really believe that’s a possibility? I’m asking honestly because I have no idea how other teams perceive Frenchy at this point. My intuition tells me that there is no way in hell a pitcher with as high a ceiling as Greinke gets traded for a guy who sucks as bad as Francoeur though.
I’m not opposed to many of your ideas though.
Jake, is there really that many people in the org. that think this is a playoff team? and that this team can catch up to 3 other teams in the division after losing 3 game series to both Wash and Phil?
Well i’m off to bed, if I hear anything else on stuff i’ll post tomorrow some time.
I would bet my house that Mac will not move to 1b during his current contract. It really is a waste of time to discuss as it’s not a possibility. Later.
Dan, neither will move, they have earned the right to play at their positions.
I know that and I fully agree.
Hey, words are free and storage is cheap, so I’ll talk about it. Basically, the difference between McCann moving to first and McCann staying at catcher is the difference between being Joe Torre and being Ted Simmons. Both were fine players — but whose career would you rather have? Torre was a popular Hall of Fame candidate (he will go in as soon as he retires from managing, of course) while Simmons washed out after getting 3.7 percent in his first year of eligibility.
csg, I really believe any trade that is made will be made to better the team for this year and next. This is why I think trading for Jason Bay is a real possibility. He is signed thru NEXT year and would be a great addition. Plus the Braves organization love draft picks and they will prefer those for tex unless it’s a great offer. They need to build pitching depth.
It’s a mentality thing and I don’t think the Braves are ready to give up on a third straight non-playoff year.
What fans should realize is instead of bitching about them not being sellers be happy that you have a team that always considers themselves as “buyers” and want to do anything to improve the team. There are a lot of teams out there (example: pirates) that will never be that way.
About Chad Tracy and Jarrod Parker, or another prospect from the DBacks, I was just saying that’s a better haul than the draft picks, that wouldn’t be my top choice by any means.
I have probably watched every game Conor Jackson has played in since he was called up, and he along with Eric Brynes are probably my two favorite players that aren’t Braves. Trust me, I would be very happy if the Braves got him, I think the DBacks are too smart of an organization to do that, but you never know, they gave
away Carlos Quentin because the owner forced the GM to sign Eric Brynes. I’m happy that the DBacks are playing Jackson everyday, which is the first year that’s happened.
Jake,
I agree, we have a team, and management that want to win, and thats great, think about if we were the pirates, and our three best players every year and sent elsewhere, to get young chips, that when they become good players, are too traded, for that i agree.
But i think in order to get back to that level, getting rid of tex now probably helps us get back the fastest, unless we are trying to sign him, which in our budget doesnt make sense with way too many other holes to fill
What fans should realize is instead of bitching about them not being sellers be happy that you have a team that always considers themselves as “buyers” and want to do anything to improve the team. There are a lot of teams out there (example: pirates) that will never be that way.
I would “realize” this if we hadn’t been scaling back payroll for the past decade. If I thought the organization was going to resign Tex, I would be for it. If you’re going to run with a midmarket payroll, you can’t let people like Tex leave to Free Agency. And saying “the Braves like draft picks” doesn’t make those picks a better value than what we would get in return for Teixeira – especially given the Braves history of drafting players in the first round with relatively low ceilings.
I’m not trying to be negative. I think the organization is in good shape when you consider some of the pieces in place. But this whole notion of “we’re always buyers” isn’t true for a midmarket team like the Braves. If they spent the money like they did in the 90s, you’d have a point.
njbraves, look at what the pirates got from the Yanks. It is a buyers market. Perhaps the Braves feel their strength in scouting and developing players along with two draft picks would be better then some decent prospects. If they get a James Loney in an offer they would accept. But I’m not sure they will receive something like that.
Thats cool Jake, I can agree there, but I do think Tex is a superior player to Nady or Marte, and should be able to bring us some good chips.
Im just trying to look at the big picture, although you might be right as well!
I think Nady AND marte together are a better value then Tex alone. But it all depends on your needs.
njbraves, look at what the pirates got from the Yanks. It is a buyers market.
That trade isn’t even close to representative of the market right now. Virtually every article written about that trade ridiculed the Pirates for getting less than other teams were getting.
Mac, I don’t think the lack of depth in the catcher position in the organization is a reason for not protecting one of our best players. I do agree that neither the Braves nor Brian would desire such move.
Is storage really that cheap?
Douglass, Nady and Marte have contracts for next season. Essentially Tex is a rental player. The reason the Rangers got so much from us is because he was signed for the following year also. We might not get that much in return for Tex considering teams are only going to have him for a couple months.
My opinion on trading for Bay would totally depend on if they plan on signing him to a deal after ’09. Otherwise we’ll be in the same position next year that we are this year with Tex, assuming the season has a similar tone to this one.
Well i would think that a guy like Tex could help put a team over the hump, thats why I think you cuold get some good chips for him.
Im trying to play the game of, what helps us the most over the next 3 years?!
I’d be thrilled to get Jackson for Tex–he’s a good player, cheap now, and under team control for a few more years. Like Mac, I might even throw in Ohman b/c Jackson’s cheap salary and ability to play 1B and LF will give the Braves so many more offseason options.
Re trading for Bay–it is nice that he’s signed through next year, but trading for him would depend on what we’d have to give up. One of the rumors a few days ago (sorry–I don’t recall the source) had the Braves sending two top pitching prospects (Hanson plus someone else–maybe Medlen or Morton) plus two lower level prospects. It may just have been a rumor, of course, but that’s not a deal I’d do. Then again, I’m probably someone who overvalues prospects (not so much b/c I think they’ll all work out but b/c they’re cheap); I didn’t like the Tex/Salty deal.
Re bringing back LaRoche–never say never, but I’d hope for a better option. Havinig his streakiness and Kj’s streakiness might be a bit much.
If you were the Dodgers do you really think aquiring Tex for say Loney and a prospect is worth it? I don’t think so. Is Tex a guy who can get you “over the hump”? I’m not so sure of that.
He’s a great player, but a game changer, thats up to debate.
The Marlins are looking to Move Mike Jacobs for relief help.
What if we traded Ohman over to the Marlins for Jacobs, and then deal Texeira for corner outfield help?
Then kotsay for a bullpen arm?
Jacobs, ugh. He and Francoeur could have not-getting-on-base contests.
ok, really have to go to bed, peace out.
I agree we won’t get equal value to the 5 prospects we gave away to Tex, but that isn’t the issue.
The issue is:
Compensatory Picks vs. Trade Return
You’re crazy if you think we can’t get more value through a trade than what we would get in the draft. Keep in mind, if we trade him, the other team doesn’t just get a “rental” for two months, they also get the compensatory picks if they don’t sign him. So it balances out. Plus, prospects have professional track records to evaluate unlike amateur draftees, plus you don’t have to pay their signing bonuses, plus they don’t take as long to make the major leagues.
I understand that we “love draft picks” but we can’t just resign ourselves to letting Tex walk. We have no shot this year, and it would be criminally inrresponsible to not even think about trading him.
Douglass, thats a good response. I can respect your opinion. Good Night
I’m glad we lost today.
A) Hopefully, it convinces the front office to sell over the next couple days to plan for the future.
B) If we can continue to lose we will have a high enough draft pick that our 1st round pick in 2009 will be protected. This means that when we sign a top free agent with the money freed up this offseason that we will only be giving a 2nd round draft pick rather than a 1st round pick.
C) If we can continue to lose, so much the better as we’ll end up with a higher pick.
So, give Chipper days off now and then. Don’t rush McCann back. Give Jair Jurrjens some DL time so his arm is saved for 2009-20?? (same for Blaine Boyer). And who cares who plays 1B after Tex is traded? If we get back a good young 1B, excellent. If the talent returned is located at other positions, then that’s fine too. We can get a 1B in the offseason or at next year’s deadline.
Build. (And trade Frenchy)
No one will weep over this, but if Tex is traded the new 1B won’t be the mighty Thor–he’s playing in the Olympics for Canada.
Also, we shouldn’t be able to or expect to get equivalent value to what we gave up for Tex. We have been able to use Tex for a full year.
I feel confident we can get a good return for him though. I’m interested to see how it shakes out.
McCann’s brother in law posted on another forum I go to says he’s fine and will miss 3-5 games and his headache is already gone and he drove himself home.
I think there is logic of Tex not being a game changer which is why some teams might be hesitant. At the end of the year his numbers are there but, I don’t know, it’s like there is something missing. It seems during crucial at bats he’s up there trying to take a walk, to pass the buck if you will. He takes borderline pitches that a game changer, like Ortiz, would drill.
Well, I hope the culture wars on this site are over although I doubt it. It seems the war is between those who like so-called advanced stats and those who don’t. Very much like the real culture war. It’s impossible to persuade the other side because they are starting with completely different premises and assumptions.
I have to believe that today’s game pushes the Braves over the edge. Surely even Booby doesn’t like the chances of making up 7 games in two months and catching three teams. On the other hand, I wouldn’t underestimate his ability in his senility to convince Wren and McGuirk that the Braves are right in this thing.
I don’t see the logic in getting rid of your best players that are young just so you can say you are blowing up the team. Why don’t you cut off your nose to spite your face? And, look, you have teams like the White Sox and Twins contending when no one expected them to be any good. But I have to admit, I’m becoming more discouraged by the day with this team and I am having trouble looking forward to next year. For one thing, the Braves simply cannot build their team around Chipper. As good as he still is when healthy, he isn’t healthy very much. And, frankly, his performance has declined significantly since he started getting the leg injuries. He is essentially a DH in a league that doesn’t have a DH. I’m not saying to trade him but you have to look at him as a 110-130 game player, not a 150 game player.
It’s good to see they’re being careful.
Marc (I like your name),
Ted Williams used to be criticized for taking borderline pitchers. Barry Bonds takes borderline pitches. Tex isn’t as good as either one of them, but taking borderline pitches is how you get on base at a high rate and how you assure you will get better pitches to hit. If taking borderline pitches is Tex’s flaw, it’s one I can live with.
Schneider,
I’m kind of in the middle. I think some folks on here are way too SABR-oriented and it occludes their vision.
You can see with your eyes much more than you can derive through obscure created statistics.
Fact is, simply put, we have a few really good players. We have too many that stink out loud by any statistical measure.
And our roster is either too inexperienced or too old.
I think that there are signs that lead me to strongly believe that this roster needs to be blown up and started over. Chemistry appears to be lacking and people appear too content. We have a lot of dead weight that needs to go.
Mac–thanks for the link to the organization depth chart; even though I sniff around baseball reference freqeuntly I had missed that feature. There’s not much to brag about at AAA and AA but Myrtle Beach has some players putting up good numbers (even more impressive since they play in a strong pitchers park, right?). Good to see Eric Campbell is back to playing and playing well.
Re Tyler Flowers as a catching prospect–errors are a so-so measure of defense, but, for what it’s worth, he has 10 of them.
Do you all think Cambell’s performance means he’ll be headed for the 40-man this offseason to protect him from the Rule 5 draft?
Hooray, another person (or probably one of the same from yesterday) who’s glad we lost. I’m just gonna go ahead and throw this out there: No one who’s actually a fan of a team roots for that team to lose…EVER.
As for McCann… His third most-similar player, and most-similar catcher, through Age 23 is Yogi Berra. He will move further away from Berra this year — because he’s been a whole lot better than Berra was at 24.
I’m hoping for Hampton to pitch a 9 inning shutout on Thursday and for some team to be so impressed that they offer us a quality backup catcher and an outfielder for him.
Seriously, if we sell (please) we need to get a backup catcher. If we start looking to build for next year, McCann needs a few breaks. Starting Corky more than 10 games over the last 1/3 of the season could result in us getting accused of throwing games. From what Sammons has done this year, he’s not a very big upgrade. Corky makes Henry Blanco look like Johnny Bench.
Nick – I understand where you’re coming from but I must disagree. I’ve been a Braves fan since I could understand what baseball was, and at least part of me was hoping they would loose today. Not that I actually want them to play poorly, but I think selling off Teixeira, Ohman and Kotsay is in the team’s best interest for 2009 and beyond (if the right deals are made). A loss today will hopefully urge the powers that be to agree with me.
It’s impossible for me to be happy when my team loses, and I can’t think of any true fan I know who is either. I can take solace that good things can happen from losing, but to be happy that we lost is ridiculous. I’d rather win now, win the division, win in the postseason, than lose a lot and get a few more draft picks or convince the front office to get some prospects for our players.
I say Campbell is not protected for Rule V. Not for the Major League portion, anyway.
Are guys like Mike Gonzalez and Omar Infante going to be free agents this offseason? They both have just over 4 years of MLB experience, I’m not sure if that means they are due significant raises or if they get to hit the market. Regardless the team will have lots of money to throw around this offseason for the first time in years seemingly. My rough calculations have them shedding around 38 million in payroll after this season, 50 million if the Smoltz option isn’t picked up. Any ideas about where these dollars should be allocated? Here’s a list of the 2009 FAs http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html
I was a big supporter of the Tex trade, but in hindsight, if we would have been a few more games back at the deadline, we may have been able to get a little value from Andruw and we could have kept a few good prospects. I’m still glad we took the chance on Tex, but please let’s not give up any prospects this year. I would love to see us win now, but as many have said, even without the injuries, this team just isn’t very good. We need an outfield and our really good prospects are probably two years away – best case.
@122, It wasn’t me yesterday, but I’m sure I’m not alone. I can understand your viewpoint, but I consider it short-sighted. Believe me, I look forward to next year when I can root for the Braves to win every game again (as I did until a couple weeks ago), but for now I don’t.
If the goal is to win any one game, then you are right, but if the goal is to win the NL East or the National League or a World Series Championship, then I think I can make a strong argument for my position.
Consider how well we’d be set up for the future if we traded Tex and others for some nice young players/prospects, got to keep our 1st round pick because we lost enough for it to be protected*, and then that it was a good enough pick to take someone who can play for and maybe even star for us in a year or two–like 2008 #11 pick 1B-Justin Smoak or #9 pick SP-Aaron Crow. On top of that, we sign some top free agents and protect our young arms. That sounds good to me.
*The top 15 picks of the MLB draft are “protected” meaning that they will not be given up to another team as compensation for signing one of the top (Type A) free agents. Instead, a 2nd round pick would be given to the team from whom the free agent is signed. For example, if the Braves sign OF-Adam Dunn in the offseason, we would only give the Cincinnati Reds a 2nd round draft pick rather than a 1st round draft pick, so long as we are one of the 15 worst teams in MLB.
Jake, my best to McCann. I hope he gets plenty of rest. There’s no need for him to be a hero and come back immediately — he’s going to be a Brave for a long, long time, so he should make sure that he takes care of his long-term health interests. Getting your brain knocked around is no small matter, and trying to come back early, like Ryan Church did, is often a bad idea. I wish him all my best for good health and a sound recovery.
He and Francoeur could sit on the bench together and discuss cartoons.
Actually, Jeff could stand to learn something from cartoons. Bugs Bunny was a much better baseball player than Jeff Francoeur.
To this point on protected picks, say that we do not trade Teixeira and he is signed by the Baltimore Orioles. If the Orioles are one of the 15 worst teams in MLB, then we would only get a supplemental 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick.
That would be lame.
Francoeur is more like Wile E. Coyote. He never learns.
Players reach free agency when they have six full seasons of service time. Gonzalez and Infante are not eligible yet.
Nick – Should a fan care about its team’s prospects for long term success?
This team needs to be sellers this year. If it takes a loss for management to realize that, then a loss is better for our long term success.
Or do real fans not care about long term success if the current season is apparently lost?
Cary, you said it much better than I.
Give me long term realism over short term optimism with this team right now. I still root for them to win, obviously. But when they inevitably don’t, I’m not getting too bent out of shape.
I guess I’ve finally reached the acceptance stage of grief for this season.
The still-burning burn pile helps.
/Fire
Got up in the middle of the night to help feed our newborn son and so I put on the Braves game….by the time he was finished it was already 6-5 and so I was smart enough to catch up on sleep….
This morning I really enjoyed Mac’s write up: we need to sell.
However, I fear that it may take more than a year to become competitive again….
Trade Tex and Ohman (possibly as a package) to the highest bidder, trade Frenchy to the Royals, keep Kotsay (unless someone is foolish enough to overpay for him) to get a draft pick and let Brandon Jones have a chance to play and develop.
What a god awful season…far more frustrating than 2006….
I am on the sell wagon. If the front office doesn’t want to make a move, they will wisht they had after the “Corky Experience” for the next 3-5 games.
I’m not against selling if the return is good. I think the season is effectively over for everyone but Bobby Cox. But let’s not kid ourselves. Getting some “nice young players/prospects” is easy to say but not so easy to do. Trading established players for prospects is risky at best because many/most don’t make it. It’s easy to look at the Marlins and say we could do that but they are more the exception than the rule.
I don’t know how much we could get for Teixera; Peter Gammons says there is no fit except for Arizona and the Braves will either have to give him away or not trade him but sometimes I think teams use Peter as a “useful idiot” to plant messages. People have been talking about how much interest there is and the number of teams expressing interest has increased but that doesn’t mean they are willing to give up much. Sure, teams would love to have Tex if the Braves are willing to give him away. Hey, I’ve got an idea, how about if we insist that any team that trades for Teixera must also take Francoeur?
As for the stats/observation split, I do think there is more to baseball than just the numbers. Psychological and group dynamics have to play a role. I also think talking about nothing but numbers gets boring after a while. But I think you have to start with the numbers and they need to be more sophisticated than just talking about RBIs and batting average. It’s a chicken-and-egg argument; are the Braves struggling because they lack chemistry or do they lack chemistry because the players are struggling and/or not that good? I tend to go with the latter.
fwiw, I think Tex to the Rays could work for both teams
the Rays shouldn’t abandon their core principles of building through youth but this season is so special for them that taking a gamble and trading some prospects (obviously not Price) for two months of Tex could be worth it b/c their offense has been so-so (10th in AL in runs)
Stephen,
To actually get draft pick(s) for a player, you have to offer arbitration. In general, the arbitrators don’t drop pay very much ever. And, I believe, that the team offering arbitration to any player (otherwise eligible for free agency) must offfer at least 80% of last year’s pay. So, the Braves would have to put like a one year 5.6 million offer on Kotsay to get draft picks. No way a semi sane organization does that.
So, IF a team will give us anything for Kotsay and we clear salary, there is value.
Ther would also be value in further MLB evaluation of Josh Anderson and Brandon Jones.
We can safely offer arb to Ohman (if he doesn’t blow his arm up in the next coupleof months). Arb rate would probbly be 3 mill or so and he would be worth that. Plus, he has a good sht at 3 years 10 million, which would keep us from having to pay an arb derived salary.
We also can safely offer arb to Teix.
Why does the Braves MLB page have our starting pitcher for tonight’s game as TBA?
Rissa, Jo Jo was supposed to start tonight, but he came in after the rain delay yesterday. The only way they can call Morton back up is to DL someone, I’m guessing Chipper if that happens. Or they could move everyone up a day but I wouldnt do that to Huddy with his elbow issue from the last start. Another option could be to call up Chuckie, but our bullpen is shot and that may not be in our best interest. I dont know when he started last either
update: Chuck pitched last friday so he wont be ready. I’m guessing they’ll DL Chipper and call up Morton
#142, because Jo-jo Reyes (I suggest he be given the nickname Yo-yo) was supposed to pitch today but he pitched in relief yesterday. Morton is expected to be called back up and start today.
Anybody else having thoughts about moving BMac to first next year? His defense has been declining year after year and you don’t want to lose his bat for long stretches due to the stupidity of a play at the plate.
Ron some people do, check out post #71-75
interesting and terrible
we are 4-5 since the break and are averaging 6.11 runs per (55 total). we are also giving up an avg. of 6.7 runs per (61 total) since the break.
Blow it up and start over.
I would move McCann to first, but who will catch? I think it would be easier to find a decent first baseman than a decent catcher. If I were to move McCann it would be in three or four years.
Show of hands…who here would be happy if Mark Cuban bought the Braves?
I’d like Cuban’s money & some of his passion, but I’d get sick of him pretty quick, especially after he gets into it with the Angel Hernandez’s of the world over ball/strike calls on May 30.
When he’s away from the Mavs, he’s a really interesting guy, but his NBA act is pretty embarrassing.
Also, more fun with Francoeur’s VORP: he’s at -10.7 for the season, tied with Freddie Bynum for 882nd out of 892 players in baseball this season. (The complete list of players below him: Omar Vizquel, Asdrubal Cabrera, Corey Patterson, Mike Lamb, Freddy Sanchez, Kenji Johjima, Andruw Jones, Wily Mo Pena, and Tony Pena, Jr. Funny two of them are ex-Braves, no?)
Freddy Sanchez and Francoeur are the only two players on the list with more than 240 plate appearances; Francoeur’s at 424, and Sanchez is at 426.
Part of the reason McCann is so great is because he plays catcher. Right now, McCann is the best offensive catcher in the majors. Where would he rank at first? Upper-middle tier?
Also, when Teixeira likely walks, it’d be much easier replacing his offense at first than it would be to move McCann to first an replace that offense at catcher.
Fulmer is on Cowherd and it is a great interview if you get a chance to hear it. All SEC fans would probably enjoy it.
Dan,
You’re right, up until the time where McCann’s offense starts to suffer because of the wear on his body from playing Catcher every day for two decades. If you move McCann to first, hopefully he remains a good hitter longer. The question I suppose is whether I/You/We think McCann’s decline phase as a catcher would still be better than the next catcher’s peak years. If yes, then I think you leave him at catcher anyway, because it is true that there are a lot of first basemen that can hit, or a lot of hitters who can play first base.
I think this year is the best McCann has been defensively in his career. His defense is definitely improving, despite the amount which I complain about it. He’s just too valuable as a catcher, and I really don’t think we should ever move him. At least not until much later in his career, and I’m talking 5-6 years at the very least. Won’t it be easier to find a 1B anyway? Why would we make it unnecessarily hard on ourselves?
Also, that’s all very well and good, people who are rooting for us to lose, but being a sports fan is not supposed to be about logic. It’s supposed to be about your undying love for your team. And how you can bear to root for your team to lose on the off chance that it might help us win down the road is beyond me. Even if we do trade Tex, you have no idea how that will turn out…it could just as easily turn out horribly. Again, we should be selling, it is the right thing to do, but it’s by no means a sure thing. In fact, likelihood is that it will fail in some way. That’s why I hate the concept of selling so much.
I think the Braves should try and pry David Price from the Rays.
The Rays want Teixeira and a left handed relief pitcher. Fuentes is supposedly now off the market.
Teixeira and Ohman for Price. Tell the Rays if they want to see the playoffs this season, and hold off the Red Sox and Yankees, they’ll do it.
“As for the stats/observation split, I do think there is more to baseball than just the numbers.”
People who say ‘sabr-minded’ stat-heads ignore ‘real-life’ baseball are building a straw man. Come on now, Marc. Be fair. Nobody on this board ignores the games played and reduces baseball to numbers. Nobody. Not anyone here and not FJM and not BP and not anyone of whom I know. This is about wanting to know more about the game you love. Plus, everybody here loves the Braves–why else be here?
Most importantly, ALL of us use statistics to measure baseball performance. Some of us use more up-to-date measures of performance while others rely on older measurements. Have you ever noticed that in trying to contradict these ‘sabermatricians’ the ‘lovers of real-life baseball’ use statistics? Go back and look at the thread from the game. It’s bogus for one side to accuse the other of reducing the game to numbers. It’s not two sides talking past each other–this ain’t a culture gap between two different epistimological outlooks; this is one side being coherent and the other not.
Nick, it’s simple. The Braves aren’t doing anything this year. They’re not good enough. If they sell the farm in order to compete this year they’re being stupid and short-sided. They’ll be hurting their prospects for the future and for WINNING, which is what we all ultimately want. There are, of course, ways to be as competitive this year and moreso next year–like trading Tex and ‘buying’ on Bay and/or Jackson, if that’s possible. But to ‘buy’ by selling the future HURTS THE TEAM. If losing convinces some of the more delusional people in the front office, or Bobby, that this is the case, fine. So be it. That’s life and, like it or not, that’s sports.
If you think sports is all about blind optimism and irrationality then you’re myopic. Sports is a business and these are multi-million dollar organizations. People here love the Braves and want them to win, just like you do. The best way to do that is to build for next season and NOT give up the future by selling key pieces of the 2010-2013 teams.
I don’t believe the Rays would EVER trade Price, even if it let them win the AL East this year.
If I were Tampa Bay I would trade anybody if it ment I could win the AL East this year.
Adam,
I never accused people here of ignoring real baseball. I was replying to someone else (I think Chief Nocahoma)and expressing my own philosophy. I do think there are people like Rob Neyer that get completely locked in on numbers to the exclusion of everything else but I never said that about anyone here. I’m sorry if my comment was construed that way.
Baseball can get way too numbery (if that is a word) sometimes.
But how much numbery is too much? 😉
Runs produced is one number too much.
I had a little time at lunch and did some checking on a few stats. Corky Miller’s .102 average this year is not a real big outlier for him. As a matter of fact, from 2004 to 2006 with the Reds, Twins and Red Sox, Corky had 1 hit in 55 at bats. That is an eye popping .018 average. To still be in baseball, this guy must have a lot of pictures. His career avg is .182 with an OPS of .572.
Someone keeps giving Corky chances.
I blame Chris Kattan.
2008 MLB Total Value Chart (Position Players)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfdux2FC_hs6ROEQ&gid=1
I took the spreadsheet and broke it down into a few categories. A few notes:
*Chipper is #1 among all MLB players. He is also the #3 fielding 3B per these numbers behind only Scott Rolen & Adrian Beltre. Will he win the Gold Glove? Nope.
*Francoeur is #556 out of 562. Tony Pena, Jr. is dead last.
*Teixeira is #3 among all 1B. and #21 overall.
*McCann is the #1 catcher and #10 overall.
Braves Total Values (overall ranking, of 562)
If you want to see further split just copy and paste the worksheet into excel and you can filter it to your liking.
@166,
Yeah, but he is good in the clubhouse.
And the pitchers:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfdux2FC_hs6ROEQ&gid=2
Just read on MLB.com that we offered the Pirates Lil’Bridge, B. Jones and 2 other prospects for Bay, and they said no.
Why didn’t they toss in Charles Thomas and Nick Green while they were at it? You can’t make up for the crappy players with volume.
I would have thought that by getting Lil’Bridge, they could make Jack Wilson expendable.
I say keep Tex…we are not going to get anything to replace what we lost, so keep him. Try to sign him and go from there.
Bay is quite similar to what Tex was last year. I expect he’ll bring in a slightly lesser haul, but I don’t think B. Jones and Batboy are enough to get it done.
says the owner nixed the deal
Why is it that these other teams are getting players for nothing, yet we can’t?
Yeah, JC, according to Peanut, the deal was agreed to but the Priates’ ownership group nixed it. Peanut claims we’re still pursuing Bay.
Considering how little the Pirates got for Nady and Marte, it’s not that surprising that they’d accept Jones, Lillibridge, someone like Rohrbough and a throw-in prospect for Bay. And if that almost gets it done, surely there’s an agreement that can be reached, unless ownership is just flat-out refusing to trade Bay for anything.
I would like that trade very, very much.
@174,
Clearly, if there was a realistic chance of signing him, there would be no reason at all to trade him. The Braves seem to have conceded that they can’t or won’t resign Tex. But I have been thinking about the value of getting prospects rather than draft picks. I don’t know if this makes sense but, let’s say you were to get two middling prospects for Tex–guys that you could expect to make the majors perhaps but not be stars. Given that they are farther along than draft picks would be and they have already been paid, there is some value there. On the other hand, there is an opportunity cost and that is the chance that you might be able to do better with your own picks and grab someone who becomes a star. (I’m assuming that teams would not trade their top prospects to rent Tex for two months.) It depends on where the two draft picks are; if they are real late, then the likelihood of doing better in the draft than in a trade would presumably be diminished. It also depends on whether you think your ability to draft and develop is better than the team you trade with. Just something to think about.
Bethany – We got Julian Taverez and Corky Miller for nothing!
If we are going for Bay, we are not selling.
maybe we could trade Tex to the Nats for Langerhans and Orr.
The site says that the deal was for four minor leaguers. Then it says the Pirates would likely have an interest in Batboy and Jones. A lot depends on who those minor leaguers are. I get the feeling Bowman is speculating on the players. I think Atlanta would have no problem with parting with either of those players.
I dunno, Smitty. Getting Bay would certainly improve the team this year, but it would also improve the 2009 Braves. It’s conceivable that we could acquire Bay and still trade Ohman and Teixeira. That would, I’d think, result in a negligible change in our 2008 chances but noticeably increase our 2009 chances.
Yeah, you’re right, JC. The specific players mentioned are only Peanut’s speculation, and he doesn’t really know anything. Shucks.
Ill tell you what, I dont want to trade 4 more minor leaguers, for Bay. Think if we had the four guys we traded Tex for last year, we wuoldnt be much worse than we are now, we would still be in fourth place. Plus we would have Harrison in our rotation, we could have Salty playing first and some more depth in our system to make trades in the future, we dont have to do this two years in a row
@184 Agreed….the parts we aquire for Tex and Ohamn to go with Bay could make us a better team than we are right now.
I agree. I think we’re buying & selling.
It would be smart, address a need for this year and next (Bay) and trade 2 guys we cant resign for useful parts or prospects….I like it
Well, it depends on what you’d be giving up, njbravesfan. In the increasingly-suspect-looking rumored deal, the Braves would be giving up a left fielder (Bay taking his place), a middle-infielder (a position of depth/strength), an A-ball pitcher (another position of depth/strength), and someone of little consequence. They’d essentially be getting Bay for guys who aren’t very likely to have a major impact in Atlanta, anyway. That’d be a good deal.
Also, are you sure Harrison would be in our rotation? Which of our current starters, even after all the injuries, is he better than?
Of course, if we got Bay (meaning we’d be getting relatively cheap—$7.5 million—LF production next year), it would seem to make signing Teixeira long-term even more workable.
According to Mark Bowman of MLB.com:
A proposed deal, which would have brought Jason Bay to Atlanta in exchange for four Minor Leaguers, was killed when presented to the Pirates owners for approval.
Bowman believes Pirates targets might include Brent Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, a talented A ball pitcher, and a marginal position player prospect. He says the Braves will continue to pursue Bay.
http://tinyurl.com/6lerqc
I don’t understand why the Pirates would want that mediocre package. I guess that’s why they’re the Pirates. Lillibridge will probably turn out to be a defensive SS backup. I’m not sure Jones will pan out, plus a miscellanous live arm, and a marginal prospect doesn’t seem like a whole lot to give up for a relatively cheap All-Star caliber player.
Harrison 9BB:2K ratio in 19IP isnt all that impressive. Then again its 19IP, but he’s not ready
I would think the A-ball pitcher would be the key to that rumored deal, braves14. They’d have to really believe in Rohrbough or Locke or whomever it is they’re targeting.
I generally agree with you, but like I said, after seeing how little they got for Nady and Marte, I’m hopeful that we could get Bay without giving up Heyward, Hanson or Schafer, whom I consider the Braves three best/most untouchable prospects.
UPDATE:
As mentioned last night the Braves are seriously negotiating with the Pirates for Jason Bay. This has nothing to do with Tex and I heard that it’s possible they could still trade Tex after acquiring Bay (if it happens).
Like I said last night, i’m not sure the Braves consider themselves sellers or buyers. They are willing to make any trade if they feel it improves their team, this year and beyond.
As far as McCann, I hear he is very sore all over but should be okay. Don’t be suprised if he is held out all of this week to be extra safe.
Stu, Shaffer is very much touchable. The fact is he hasn’t done much this year after his suspension. He would be a centerpiece in any trade but I do believe the Braves would trade him if the deal was right. The Braves need Power in the outfield, trading for Bay would just make sense.
@179
Very interesting point. I have no idea which is better.
per DOB,
Expect Clint Sammons to be brought up to fill in for concussed Brian McCann, and Charlie Morton to get tonight’s start, which means someone (Chipper?) will have to be DL’d to open a roster spot for Morton. Oh, and Tex to be traded to Arizona
update,
By David O’Brien
July 28, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
Charlie’s starting tonight. That part is official. But no corresponding move yet
Jake,
Schafer hasn’t been great, but he’s still OPS’ing .755. Seems like trading him now would be selling rather low. Also, who plays CF next year? Blanco? Anderson? Those options don’t excite me.
I’d much rather trade Gorkys Hernandez for a couple of reasons:
(1) He’s a hotter name than Schafer is right now, meaning you probably wouldn’t have to give up as much in addition to the CF to get whomever you’re targeting; and
(2) He’s at least a full season farther away from helping at the major league level than Schafer is.
I agree that trading for Bay makes a lot of sense—I’d just be hesitant to include Schafer if I could make another package work.
DOB was mostly joking about that last line, csg.
Stu, The pirates have no interest in Schafer as they are pretty solid at outfield, even after giving up Bay. They need pitching and infield help, something the braves can offer.
What would you do as the Pirates front office? Try and keep at least a mirage of good will towards the fans by keeping Bay or go ahead and move him for a prospect and parts and at least try to build for the future?
stu, joking about what?
c. shorter, What is kind of scary about the Pirates is they don’t look that far off. They have some good SP, good looking young catcher, you have to think Sanchez will rebound, Good looking outfield.
If they could add a top notch FA they might be better then the Braves next season. I think they are at a crossroads on what to do. Their management wants to get as many prospects as possible to add depth. They ownership might think they are closer then their GM thinks.
csg,
The Teix-to-Arizona line.
Jake,
Since your connection to the team is through some of the players, and not the front office, I have trouble believing you know which minor leaguers are and aren’t being discussed. Are you just opining here, or do you have some reason to know who the Pirates are seeking from the Braves?
…joking about what?
The Teixiera to Arizona line.
Thank God, no Corky.
Maybe the Pirates would take a Lillibridge and A ball pitcher, and Frenchy. Ya never know
203, 205 — I’d tend to think they’re not as close as they’d like to be. That having been said, I’d still keep Bay if i were them considering his level of play and his relative good price unless I was really convinced that I was getting a great deal to move him. But, I was also surprised that they didn’t bring McCutcheon (sp?) up when Nady was moved. Are Bay and McCutcheon really so bad in the OF that they can’t play both corners? Anyway…
Stu,
I called a couple people in Pittsburgh last night to find out more information. I don’t know 100% they wouldn’t be interested in Shafer but I do know they want many prospects. Getting someone like Shafer would only net them one, MAYBE two more prospects. Getting a Brandon Jones would net them more prospects. Well i’m off. Peace out.
Stu, yeah I agree. I thought you were referring to the line about Morton. My bad
c. shorter, from what i was told McCutcheon is so good defensively they might play him in CF next year and move McLouth to LF or RF.
If Sammons can hold his own for the next few days, then it might be the end of Corks!
Game thread is up.
We can attempt to sign Texeira as a free agent even if we trade him away as a two-month rental, of course. We’re not going to get a leg up on the competition by keeping him.
According to Baseball Prospectus, the Braves have a little over a 2 percent chance of winning the NL East and a little over a 1 percent chance of winning the NL Wildcard, giving us a grand total of around a 3 percent chance(!) of making the playoffs.
Sell.
KJ has been way above the average for a second baseman, but he still wouldn’t be a good first baseman.
Again — Chad Tracy = injury-prone player who doesn’t do anything particularly well and who is about to decline and who will make about $5 million in 2009. That would be crazy. If you get Tracy, he should not be seen as anything but a fill-in and the real take should be prospects. I would rather have two draft picks and money than Chad Tracy, any day.
Hudson would only miss two starts, probably — but yes, sell, sell, sell.