Jeff said after the game he thought it was impossible that they lose the game. That must be why he made that inane baserunning mistake.
“Never in my wildest dreams did I think we could lose.”
I think that sums Jeff up pretty well.
“Never in my wildest dreams did I think he was gonna throw me three straight chin level fastballs!”
Weldon
on July 27, 2008 at 9:51 am
He also said he was glad he’s not a GM. I think we all share this sentiment.
Adam M
on July 27, 2008 at 9:54 am
I just re-read the comments through the yesterday’s recap, and I must say that I’m confused as to how people believe there is no market for Tex. What’s the basis for this? Are you monitoring Wren’s phone line? Are you privy to inside information? I ask because everything I’ve read suggests there absolutely IS a market for Tex. In fact, the holdup, from the sound of things, is Wren’s decision to sell, not other teams’ reluctance to trade for a great-hitting, sure-handed first baseman. Everyone is reporting that the Braves will be able to make a deal as quickly as they decide they do want to make a deal. From the sound of things, Wren has already had extensive discussions with several clubs–the Red Sox, Rays, Angels, even D’Backs.
jea
on July 27, 2008 at 9:59 am
Well, top story on MLB Trade Rumors a bit ago was a beat reporter for the D-Backs saying they have no interest. That may be false, though.
Ron
on July 27, 2008 at 10:04 am
I think people are saying there is no market because they are expecting to get back 5 prospects like the Braves gave up for Tex last year. But they are forgetting that was for a full year and 2 months of Tex plus 2 months of Ron Mahay. If the Braves could get one elite outfield or first base prospect for Tex, I would consider that a good deal and do it.
njbravesfan
on July 27, 2008 at 10:28 am
I think teams have to play low interest so they dont pay through the nose.
If your in contention and you need a big bat in the middle of your lineup and you look, there is only 1 big bat available, Tex.
Wren has the upper hand. I dont care if he is a rental or not, teams pay out the nose for rentals on a yearly basis, so I dont know how this year is any different, and this guy is a legit stud.
Im sure if Wren works it right he can get a nice load back. Especially if its a young major leaguer with a huge upside and a minor league pitcher, it could really help us.
you never know whats going to happen with draftpicks
Nick
on July 27, 2008 at 10:45 am
Well, at least we’re facing Joe Blanton today. If that was the Phillies’ idea of a quality deadline pickup, they’re in real trouble.
Oh wait…I almost forgot. We’re supposed to be rooting for our own team to lose in the most painful and ridiculous way imaginable. How silly of me.
Rob Cope
on July 27, 2008 at 10:51 am
Duh, Nick.
I can’t imagine that there isn’t a huge amount of interest in Teixera. Teixera is the only bat available that can make a legitimate difference in a team’s success. Sorry, Raul Ibanez isn’t that guy.
It would, however, be pretty ridiculous for Wren to be looking for the same deal as JS paid last year. That would be like buying a new car, then wanting to get the price you paid for it 5 years later. Sorry, doesn’t work that way, Frank!
Totally off-topic, but do we have any Dave Ramsey fans on here? What do you guys think of him?
Stu
on July 27, 2008 at 10:57 am
I’m a Dave Ramsey fan, Rob. Have a good buddy who works for him, actually.
Also, there’s no way Wren is looking for 5 prospects for Teix.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 11:23 am
Get one outfield bonafide prospect or established major leaguer (not a suspect) and a couple live arms at the AA level and I’m happy.
I go to Tex and point blank ask him if the contract we offer him if he will accept it and if he says no then make the deal, period.
Nick
on July 27, 2008 at 11:39 am
I has to be our best offer if we do it that way, Chief, but assuming it is, I don’t really have a problem with that.
I do think we need to get a first baseman back in the deal. A Major League first baseman. As in, the team we trade him to has to trade us their first baseman, because this may be the only chance we have to get one. Neither Ohman nor Kotsay will fetch a Major League first baseman in any deal we might strike involving them, and the free agent market at that position is pretty awful this offseason, excluding Tex.
RobBroad4th
on July 27, 2008 at 11:46 am
Warning: unsolicited optimism that pains even me to write.
Yesterday sucked. It was the worst choke I’ve seen in a long time, and I watch a lot of Mets games.
That being said, I expected to lose with Hampton on the mound and Cole Hamels’s dominance of the Braves this year. I think most people did. So even though yesterday was pathetic, it’s still just another loss. If we win today, we still take the series, which is all we could realistically hope for before the series started.
Oh, and Frenchy sucks.
Nathan
on July 27, 2008 at 11:54 am
BPro is reporting that in fact there are six teams interested in Tex, and that the market is starting to show dramatic interest.
It was the worst choke I’ve seen in a long time, and I watch a lot of Mets games.
Rob, I say this as a friend: save yourself.
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I hope that if we decide to sell, that B-mac starts getting some time off. Damn.
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I just looked at the Philly radar & it shows some big storms about to roll through there.
RobBroad4th
on July 27, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Not too bad.
Jason
on July 27, 2008 at 12:46 pm
That’s Our Jeffy!™
(Really, though — who didn’t see that coming?)
@20 below:
Odds are, Bobby shifted KJ down so he wouldn’t have three lefties in a row (McCann, Kotsay, and KJ) followed by the Human Out Machine. Plus, as has been noted here, Kelly’s been in a touch of a slump lately. Combine the two, and there you are.
Hanan
on July 27, 2008 at 12:47 pm
How is Johnson hitting behind F-cur? How is any body hitting behind him? Why is he in MLB?
Weldon
on July 27, 2008 at 12:48 pm
As Tom Petty might say, Yer So Bad. Seriously.
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I think that win or lose, the Braves are buyers. I still think that the team is delusional & thinks they are contenders.
3 consecutive posts is a record for me. Since I’m the only one here, I’ll just have a conversation with my self…..
“What is E.T. short for?” “I don’t know Phillip, what?” “Because his legs are so tiny”…dum de dum de dum….
Marc Schneider
on July 27, 2008 at 12:48 pm
We are getting some rough weather here in DC and we are not far from Philly.
At the risk of inviting ridicule, as bad as yesterday was, I do think we should give Hampton some credit for actually getting back on the mound when no one thought he would. He didn’t pitch well but what would you expect after three years. He has had a long road back and, if nothing else, at least he can say he made it. And it really wasn’t his fault the Braves lost.
If the Braves can get a decent return for Tex, they should take it. But, I repeat, I don’t think they will unless they get blown away because of Bobby.
Ron
on July 27, 2008 at 12:48 pm
If you are a pitcher facing the Braves and you don’t throw only shoulder high fastballs to Jeff Francoeur, you’re an idiot. He can’t hit them and he will swing at them every frakking time. It’s unreal.
RobBroad4th
on July 27, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Good thing Terry Pendleton wants him to keep his aggressiveness at the plate.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I think Bobby truly believes those three days in Mississippi fixed Francoeur.
How the hell is he batting above Johnson and Infante? All he had to do there is put the ball in play and the Braves would have another run.
Adam M
on July 27, 2008 at 12:50 pm
The Phillies announcers just laughed at Francoeur. They actually laughed out loud, startled and amused and probably relieved that he’s on our team.
Why can’t Bobby see just how horrible he is? Why?
RobBroad4th
on July 27, 2008 at 12:50 pm
How many pitches does Francouer average per at bat?
RobBroad4th
on July 27, 2008 at 12:51 pm
A: Three. Strike one, strike two…
Jason
on July 27, 2008 at 12:53 pm
A: Three. Strike one, strike two…
That’s ignoring all the times he grounds into an inning-ending double play by swinging at the first pitch after the pitcher has walked the bases loaded.
(For the curious, he’s actually averaging 3.42 P/PA. Also interesting is that his overall swing percentage of 54% is the lowest mark of his career, while his contact rate [76%] is the highest.)
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Probably two-point-something. All those first-pitch outs and all those strikeouts probably meet in the middle somewhere.
RobBroad4th
on July 27, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Wow, that was Francouer caliber base-running.
Brian J.
on July 27, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Was Utley really trying to score from first on a single?
I’ve come to dread the rare occasions when Frenchy doesn’t do something stupid or ineffective- they make it more likely that he’ll be in the lineup and dragging the team down day after life-sucking day.
Jason
on July 27, 2008 at 1:07 pm
I’ve come to dread the rare occasions when Frenchy doesn’t do something stupid or ineffective
They also make the conversation around here just that much less entertaining.
The Yankees’ acquisition of Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte last night may have upped the ante, as industry sources are indicating that discussions for Braves first baseman Mark Teixeira have heated up dramatically over the past 48 hours, with as many as six teams now interested, including some new parties from the American League. Teixeira has consistently been a big second-half player and is the best bat available at the deadline. As an aside, he’ll also be worth two draft picks when he likely departs whatever team he’s playing for to pursue free agency. That combination means that Atlanta will be looking for a sizable package similar to the kinds received in the past for MVP-level players like Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran.
Hanan
on July 27, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Francouer just struck out swinging while hitting of the tee during the rain delay.
Stu
on July 27, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I’ve come to dread the rare occasions when Frenchy doesn’t do something stupid or ineffective…
Oh, I dunno, it’s nice to see Lando once in a while.
Mark Grogan
on July 27, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Out of all JF’s recent bone-headed miscues, that 1st inning strikeout has to rank right up there. Before the ball left Blanton’s hand, Coste was jumping up and to the right for a loaction that only French would love. I would have pulled him from the game and sent him down right then. He has to go. The airmail to the screen for the play at the plate last week had my boot ready. Today’s strike out with 2nd and 3rd one out against Blanton has me with it right up his rear. He has to go!!!!
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 1:38 pm
The airmail to the screen for the play at the plate last week…
Which one?
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Dan, he’s batting 6th because Bobby wanted to split up the lefties and the righties, and he’s got more pop than Omar. Also, if you’re trying to straighten him out, the last thing you want to do is put him in a situation, like batting 8th, where he gets NO protection behind him.
Also, remember it was Brian McCann on third. He wasn’t going to score on just any ball put in play. That’s Jeff’s problem, he’s always trying to do too much.
Stu
on July 27, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Learned something new today: Jeff Francoeur’s mother is named “Greyson.”
Ron
on July 27, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Greyson, Jeff could hit 2nd and it still wouldn’t be enough protection to keep him from sucking.
Joshua
on July 27, 2008 at 1:47 pm
@42 – Jeff’s problem is that he sucks at the game of baseball…
I did not get a chance to see the game yesterday (we got BOS and NYY here in this part of Virginia—thanks, FOX), so that was the first time I saw Ohman’s intro. That was awesome! I’m still laughing at it…
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 1:55 pm
re Joshua:
Those numbers were from before Jeffy struck out on three pitches today…
I hadn’t seen the Ohman intro either — that is very funny, especially “Prado spelled backwards is Nitram Odarp.”
Yes, he’s mostly doing Will Ferrell channeling Caray, but I think I prefer the Ohman version to Farrell’s.
Joshua
on July 27, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Does anyone want to put speculation around why Kotchman is sitting out today?
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Nice observation Joshua.
I’ll be skeptical until I see it happen or at least hear some chatter around the internet…but veeery intersting.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 2:05 pm
@46 Alex R., Frenchy’s career Slugging is .445, to .388 for Omar. Frenchy’s career AB/HR is about 27.3, Omar’s is 52. Even if you only look at this season Frenchy homers better than every 43 ABs. I’m not saying he’s great, but he deserves to bat 6th over Omar. Of course Omar deserved to bat 5th yesterday for a number of obvious reasons. When it comes to filling out a lineup Bobby knows what he’s doing.
And Ron, it wouldn’t be smart to bat him 2nd, but if you’re trying to fix a guys many problems, especially one with so much potential who has proven he can put up ML-caliber numbers over two and a half seasons, it’s best not to throw him completely under a bus. Batting him 8th would be doing just that.
Stu
on July 27, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I certainly plan to, Joshua.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:06 pm
You gotta think we wouldn’t be playing Tex today if a deal was done though.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:11 pm
re Grayson:
I strongly disagree with your use of Frenchy’s career numbers to say he deserves to bat ahead of Infante in a lineup. Given Frenchy’s decline and current level of performance, that’s pretty misleading. His power numbers have declined every year he’s been in the league, to the point this year that Francoeur is basically a singles hitter.
When power numbers are as meager as what Frenchy and Omar are putting up, the difference is negligible. Much more important in comparing these kinds of players: OBP. For this reason, not only should Omar be batting above Frenchy, but Frenchy shouldn’t even be playing at all. As has been demonstrated countless times on this blog, he is significantly worse than replacement level. (Unlike Omar, who as a utility man, is comfortably valued above replacement level.)
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Douglass, I’m not trying to defend Jeff, I’m defending Bobby here. But like I said even if you look at this season’s numbers it’s obvious Jeff is more likely to hit a HR than Omar, not to mention Omar is probably a faster runner, which is more important at the 8 spot. OBP obviously matters, and Jeff’s is awful this season, but in the NL OBP matters more in the 8 hole than in the 6 hole. Also, as I said, the main reason I’d bat Jeff 6th in this lineup is to give him some protection, so that you’re putting him in an opportunity where he isn’t doomed to fail. That way, if he does fail, which given this year he likely will, you can blame it on him, and not the fact that the pitcher wasn’t going to give him anything to hit with Campillo batting behind him.
More importantly, when is this rain going to let up? I’m out west without TV, does it look as bad as it sounds?
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Greyson is one of those random soccer moms that goes to Braves fans about 5 times per year that just loves Francouer no matter what and somehow made her way to this board. I picture Tammy Wynette playing in the background, Stand by your Man.
I looked at the radar, and the worst of the rain seemed to have passed. I would guess it would stop raining in half an hour or so.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:29 pm
like I said even if you look at this season’s numbers it’s obvious Jeff is more likely to hit a HR than Omar, not to mention Omar is probably a faster runner, which is more important at the 8 spot. OBP obviously matters, and Jeff’s is awful this season, but in the NL OBP matters more in the 8 hole than in the 6 hole.
So because Jeff is marginally more likely to hit a homerun than a guy that doesn’t hit homeruns, we should put his .286 OBP in the middle of the lineup, batting behind our only good hitters?
I’m sorry, but regardless of what arbitrary rules about speed and protection you want to apply, that’s just not right. Regardless of “the need for speed in the 8 hole” (since when is Omar speedy?) or “Frenchy’s need for protection” (doomed to failure? he’s already failing.), you just can’t put a blackhole in the 5 and 6 hole like we do with him, period. Bat him 8th, bench him, I don’t give a fuck…but please, stop putting him in the middle of the lineup, he is absolutley KILLING us there. It’s indefensible at this point.
OBP > protection and speed considerations
(Neither one of them has enough speed for it to matter anyway.)
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Kyle Davies looking like Cy Young for the Royals today.
They’ve mentioned that Kotch isn’t in the lineup, but there’s been literally no speculation on their end that it’s related to a deal. I registered a name, but they have a 24 hour waiting period before I can post…was gonna try to get some of their thoughts on the issue.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Just saw Mahay’s stats this year. That dude is a flat out stud, in an extremely quiet way.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Thanks for the weather report Mac.
Douglass, you can have your opinion. I just don’t share it and neither does Bobby. Someone asked a question as to why he was batting sixth, and I gave what was probably Bobby’s rationale. Batting Jeff 8th isn’t the right move from a personnel standpoint, you might as well just release him.
As for replacing him, the Braves simply don’t have any better options right now. The best move is to support him, work out his major approach problems, and hope he finally realizes his potential, or at least gets back to producing like he did in his first 3 seasons.
Anything is a better option. When Chipper comes back, playing Infante fulltime in right would be better. Playing Anderson in right would be better. Playing Anderson in center and Kotsay in right would be better. Francoeur is a pit of outs and he’s killing the team. At this point, the only reason to play him is if you’re looking for a better draft pick.
mraver
on July 27, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Frankly, I’d be hitting Infante ahead of both Frenchy and KJ at this point.
Justin Parker
on July 27, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Wow that Ohman intro is absolutely hillarious. He must not be planning on staying long. He absolutely destroyed the whole lineup. I wonder if the FO approved that intro.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 2:44 pm
No plug but if you all like text sims, OOTP 9 is an epically awesome game. I traded Teix for Conor Jackson, Geraldo Parra and Jarrod Parker last night. Parra is a stud RF prospect and Parker was the 2nd ranked SP prospect in their organization. I’m currently 33-29 and the Phillies are in 1st place.
/nerdy
jj3bagger
on July 27, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Just got a chance to watch that Ohman intro, that was great. “Says here he’s 210 pounds, not buyin it, not buyin it.” That’s awesome.
Listened to the debacle yesterday, no more needs to be said about that. Went the the monumental Isotopes-Grizzlies AAA game last night and got to see “closer” Kevin Gryboski close out the Isotopes. Wow, those were two terrible minor league teams. Got my first foul ball I have ever gotten in the seemingly thousands of games I have been to, so I had that going for me, which was nice.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Batting Jeff 8th isn’t the right move from a personnel standpoint, you might as well just release him.
What does that even mean? He’d still be in the starting lineup which is more than he deserves. Because it would hurt his feelings? Do you really think he would be even worse than he already has been batting 8th? How is that even possible?
As for replacing him, the Braves simply don’t have any better options right now…
Really? That’s funny because every single player we’ve sent to the plate this year has better numbers than him. Could’ve fooled me.
JC has done some pretty interesting work on the issue of “protection” and whether it actually helps a hitter to have a good hitter behind him. Short answer: it looks like a myth.
Greyson, I’m going to have to disagree with you — Francoeur has killed too many rallies by batting behind our good hitters, coming up with men on base, and failing utterly, for me to accept any further justification for keeping him high in the batting order. I agree with Mac: we can’t be trying “to fix a guys many problems.” If he has so many problems that he can’t play at a major league level, then getting more major league playing time isn’t going to solve them. Certainly, batting 6th instead of 8th isn’t going to do the trick. All it’s going to do is kill more rallies.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Mac, I would like to see both Anderson and Brandon Jones get another chance at more playing time. But you can’t say definitively that either would be a significant improvement, not to mention that you also have Gregor Blanco who isn’t putting up All-World stats in left. You’ve got to give Jeff a chance to sort out these issues, and at the least recoup some value out of him. I would hope and expect that both Anderson and Jones get more time come September though.
I don’t see as much of Jeff as you guys do back East I’m sure, so that’s probably a large part of it, but you can’t give up on a guy that put up the numbers he did over the last 3 years. Not after only 5/8ths of the season. You’ve got to try and work his problems out.
The Phillies went through this a few years back with Pat Burrell, who never quite became the star they expected, but he’s proven to be a legitimate ML starter. If the Phillies can have patience with their idiotic fans, we should at least be able to give Jeff a couple more months before we cut the cord.
Now let’s get that tarp off and get back to baseball!
jj3bagger
on July 27, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Have they announced when this game is going to start again ??
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Infante’s career OBP of .301 is lower than Francoeur’s.
Infante has been in the majors a lot more seasons than Francoeur, but hasn’t played in many more games than Francoeur and has a little around 200 less career at-bats than Francoeur.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:56 pm
More perspective:
There are only 3 players in the NL who have both at least 10% of their teams plate appearances and a negative VORP rating:
Freddie Sanchez, Jeff Francoeur, & Khalil Greene.
Is it a coincidence that the Pirates, Braves, & Padres are all already out of contention? I think not.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 2:58 pm
The major leagues is not where players “work out their issues” when the issues in question are as severe as Jeffy’s. That’s what the minor leagues are for.
But you can’t say definitively that either would be a significant improvement
Yes you can. Just getting Francoeur out of the lineup would be addition by subtraction at this point.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Also, LOL at Greyson bagging on Blanco’s numbers in a post defending Francoeur.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Douglass, management, in any field, is all about putting your assets in a position where they can succeed and grow. Jeff swings at bad pitches, and unless the bases are juiced, there will be no reason to throw him anything but bad pitches if Campillo is the only protection behind him. Batting him eighth is setting him up for failure. Now you can argue he could benefit from time in the minors, or an occasional rest, but if he’s in there you can’t justify batting him 8th.
As for numbers this year, you’ve got it right. Jeff’s are awful, but his potential is there and is real, and it has showed up at least one at-bat per game over the last 4 or 5 that I’ve dissected.
Alex: As for JC’s work, I’m unfamiliar with it, but I think that’s a pretty statistically rigid opinion. Anyone who has ever watched a game of baseball knows that a batter gets better pitches to hit if the pitcher doesn’t want to have to face the guy behind him, it only makes sense. Statistically, from a macro standpoint, it probably all evens out, but especially with a guy like Jeff it is going to matter.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Oh-No Reyes starting instead of Campillo now (why they replace pitchers just because of a rain delay I do not know.)
Goodbye win.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:05 pm
So Campillo probably won’t get back in the game after this lengthy delay, right? That sucks. Who’s Bobby gonna send out there… Reyes?
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:07 pm
but if he’s in there you can’t justify batting him 8th.
Several of us in this thread did just that.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 3:07 pm
This isn’t even going to be one of those slow train wrecks. Reyes will blow this lead quick.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:09 pm
A walk, another hit by Coste, and another walk… crap! Reyes better get his head out of his ass. Dan, you may be right.
Anyone who has ever watched a game of baseball knows that a batter gets better pitches to hit if the pitcher doesn’t want to have to face the guy behind him, it only makes sense.
It makes sense, which is why everyone thinks it’s true, but it’s not remotely substantiated by the data. What JC found is that a pitcher is just as likely to make better pitches to a guy with a great hitter behind him, to reach back and make a better pitch so he doesn’t have to face the great hitter with a guy on base.
you can’t give up on a guy that put up the numbers he did over the last 3 years
Over the last three years, he has been one of the worst players in all of baseball (2006), a league-average player (2007), and the worst player in baseball (2008).
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Douglass, IMO the minors won’t work for Jeff because he’ll just dominate there like he did in his 3 days in Mississippi. He needs to be humbled and he needs to regain his confidence against ML pitching. But, I’ve had enough of trying to explain my reasoning to a closed mind with an open mouth… and I wasn’t “bagging” on Blanco, just pointing out that there is a lot of playing time available in the Braves outfield, and Jeff’s production over the last 3 years has earned at least a healthy share of it, much more than Blanco’s decent numbers over 90 games this year. (Blanco, who hails from South America, is also basically just a LF, he couldn’t overthrow McCann if he tried.)
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Reyes escaped. Thankfully he only had to get one out.
Considering that JC wrote me after Greyson popped up here saying that he had to ban Greyson for baiting other posters, it seems unlikely that Greyson is unfamiliar with JC’s work.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Also, you’re whole premise about “potential” and “not giving up on a guy that put up the numbers he did over the last 3 years” is flawed.
Have you looked at his numbers from the past few years and even in the minor leagues?
He had a career OBP of .300 in the minors. 2008 will be the second time in his 3 and half year old career that he finished a season with a negative VORP. His second season with a OBP below .300. His power numbers have declined every year he’s been in the league. In nearly 2000 MLB at-bats, he strikesout nearly 4 times as much as he walks. 2000 at bats: not exactly a small sample size. When is this potential going to show itself?
Regardless of his BA with RISP and RBI totals from the past couple years, if you look at his numbers, Francoeur is exactly the kind of player you have to be concerned about, exactly the kind of player you send back to the minors, exactly the kind of player you don’t bat in the middle of the lineup, and given his off-field brattiness, exactly the kind of player you have to think about giving up on.
You haven’t provided a single piece of evidence to support a single one of your points. I can’t even count how many stats I’ve cited in our little debate. Yet I’m the closed minded one?
Apparently, I’ve never watched a baseball game. And my co-author wasn’t a two-time all-conference college baseball pitcher/catcher.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:18 pm
re: 92
Interesting. It really makes me wonder about this guy’s connection to Francoeur. Is he his Mom? Work for the PR firm that represents him? Relative? Starry-eyed aquaintence? Someone stranger with an obsession from afar? His dugout fluffer?
Adam
on July 27, 2008 at 3:19 pm
The day people decide that they don’t have to waste their lives winning an argument against one person who happens to be obviously wrong…that day will be a very good day.
Internet messageboards and blogs will wither away and die, but it will still be a very good day.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I love how Greyson keeps citing Jeffy’s 2006 season as a positive.
Re: 98
What would be the point in coming to a site like this if there was no debate?
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Alex, the last three years I was referring to were ’05, ’06, and ’07. While his overall numbers weren’t majorly impressive, he did knock in over 100 runs two years in a row, on top of scoring 80+. I know these numbers are affected by lineups, and aren’t considered as objective as some of his less stellar numbers, but the fact remains that 28% of our runs last year came from direct contributions of Jeff.
Again, as for JC’s data, I’m sure it all works out in the overall scheme, but with Jeff in particular I’d much rather him get “better pitches” trying to get him out, than eye-high fastballs from a pitcher who doesn’t care if he walks. The numbers show Jeff does better when he isn’t the last hope, which is what the 8th hole hitter is.
Now let’s get some runs!
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics: even if you win, you’re still retarded.
jea
on July 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Jeffy’s getting eye-high fastballs wherever he hits in the lineup. Why on earth would a pitcher throw him anything else?
“Protection” as a major factor has been quite thoroughly debunked on several occasions. If there’s anything to it, it certainly doesn’t apply to Francoeur, because he is stupid and swings at everything. Just throw him eye-high fastballs that Ted Williams couldn’t hit and he’ll swing at them.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Yeah, we’ve all seen that .gif, Dan…really original stuff there. Honestly, I don’t understand that point of view…as I said a second ago, would you rather we all agree on everything?
re Grayson:
he did knock in over 100 runs two years in a row
Jeffy’s 2006 is a case study in why RBI totals are a terrible stat to evaluate performance.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I was just joking. Of course debate makes this site more interesting.
Francoeur’s problem is that he is an out-making machine.
ricflair
on July 27, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Nice to see Douglass agreeing with everyone here again today.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Dugout fluffer?!? Ewwwwwww… 🙂
I don’t want to give up on Francoeur but this isn’t the time to be patient and help him rediscover how to do his job. It’s not like this is May. The Braves have to overtake three very good teams to win the division… hell, they’re not even a .500 ballclub at this point.
Every game has to be approached like a must-win in my opinion. I’d put the hottest bats/gloves in the lineup and let everyone know that playing time would be determined by what you’ve done lately and not your potential.
Adam
on July 27, 2008 at 3:27 pm
@99. Debate is one thing…for instance, I’m here to read up on what people think of different packages we get in return for Tex. There’s plenty of room for debate there, I think.
The Frenchy thing, however, is not debatable. It’s more like beating a dead horse.
While his overall numbers weren’t majorly impressive
This is a bit of an understatement for a player who is, again, the worst player in baseball.
I’d much rather him get “better pitches” trying to get him out, than eye-high fastballs from a pitcher who doesn’t care if he walks.
Pitchers don’t care if he walks because he doesn’t walk. He is unable of distinguishing between a ball and a strike. They don’t have to throw him a strike, because he’ll swing anyway, and either strike out or make weak contact. (I’m convinced that his .262 BABIP this year isn’t entirely a fluke — he gets himself out on bad pitches far too often.)
the fact remains that 28% of our runs last year came from direct contributions of Jeff.
This is horrible math, but I’ll let it go, because the fact remains that he directly contributed to many, many more runs not scoring. We would have scored many, many more runs the past three years if he had not been in our lineup — that’s what having a negative VORP means.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Fair enough, Adam. I would tend to agree with you if the likes of Greyson didn’t continue to come here to put the Frenchy-apologist spin on things.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Wild pitch! That makes it much harder to hit into a double-play.
And… another data point for the “Francoeur Sucks” study.
Cary
on July 27, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Trade Jeff Francoeur to Los Angeles straight up for Dodgers 3B Andy LaRoche. They’ve just sent LaRoche to AAA again and obviously don’t think much of him. I’ll bet he could be had for Frenchy.
Then put LaRoche at 1B for the remainder of the year after Tex is traded, spotting him at 3B to give Chipper a break once a week or so.
That gives us a cheap young player under control who I think has better potential than Kotchman and Loney anyway.
In a few years, LaRoche would go to 3B permanently to take over for Chipper.
ricflair
on July 27, 2008 at 3:31 pm
OK who is a worse everyday player right now Frenchy or Andruw?
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:31 pm
I wonder if Jeff’s favorite cereal is Special K?
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Mac, I’d definitely suggest taking JC’s personnel opinions with a grain of salt. He has a great statistical mind, and I don’t doubt that his statistical analyses were correct in assessing the overall picture (though as I said each individual situation is different.) However, when it comes to dealing with people, he, like most great economic minds, isn’t always the clearest of head. As for my “ban,” which was more than mutual I simply asked him why he censored one of my comments, to which his first reply was, and I quote: “Go away jackass, I don’t put up with this garbage.” He later apologized, but never provided any response to my polite request. (If you’d like to see the whole discussion, I’d be happy to supply you with it Mac.) And I am unfamiliar with the specific study that Alex refered to, not his larger body of work.
I’m with Adam though, but I do worry that what I’m experiencing here is the same thing I’ve cursed every October. So many Atlanta fans are awful, not only do you guys not show up at the stadium, but you don’t support your team. Embrace fandom, maybe put away your statistics for one afternoon and watch a ballgame!
Tomas
on July 27, 2008 at 3:32 pm
That counts as a hit, Kelly, you can do that more often.
Adam
on July 27, 2008 at 3:32 pm
KJ!
Zomar!
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Attaboy, KJ!
Reading Greyson’s posts from JC’s blog, it is obvious this guy has some connection to Frenchy. It’s all he posts about. Some choice snippits:
“Im not sure Frenchy should be the object of that criticism, but you can’t expect anyone to openly criticize a Saint like Bobby Cox or John Schuerholz, which is perhaps where it is due.”
“As for Frenchy being on the way to a mediocre career, here’s a trio of Hall of Famers, also from cities that love their players, to compare him with: Barry Bonds, Kirby Puckett, & Dave Winfield”
“there is no way the Braves can put an outfield out there without Francoeur”
Wow. Well, I wasn’t sure that Frenchy should be batting ahead of Kelly and Infante, but now I think I understand.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:38 pm
RBIs are like Wins, you can’t put as much stock in them as you do with more objective stats, but you don’t give up on a pitcher who won you 20 games the year before, just like you don’t give up on a guy who produced 170 runs. Regardless of any other stats, runs produced and pitcher wins are the two most determinant of team success. Now if the guy doesn’t win 10 over the next couple of years you can call it a fluke, but we’ve only given Jeff 5/8ths of a season.
As for eye-high pitches, you guys are taking one or two at-bats a game and obsessing on those. He does have a good at-bat every now and then. But again, I’m not defending Jeff, I’m defending Bobby… now if you want to argue that Bobby isn’t a good manager, I think you’re on your own there.
runs produced and pitcher wins are the two most determinant of team success.
False.
Runs produced are dependent on the production of the players in front of and behind him. A pitchers win-loss record is also dependent on what his teammates do at the plate and in the field.
Because of this, these two stats are easily among the most overrated in the game in evaluating an individuals performance.
Adam
on July 27, 2008 at 3:42 pm
OK, because of #123, I now have to take back what I said before.
I come here for the good debate AND the relentless sarcastic mockery of other people who say asinine things.
Please, by all means, have at it!
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Haha, and now Omar chooses this game to hit his second homer of the season… great… As I said the Kelly thing is just to split up lefties and righties. We’ve got a lefty dominant lineup today, and Kelly provides good protection for Jeff.
And Mac, Kelly just started to platoon, has only 40 at-bats less than Jeff, and is a defensive liability. Not to say he isn’t having a far better year, but it isn’t as cut and dried as you made it.
As for my comments from months ago that Douglass takes out of context. You really should look at the 4th year slumps of those three HoFers, they’re not quite as bad as Jeff’s but it shows plenty of data to suggest he could easily rebound and have a great year.
NickC
on July 27, 2008 at 3:44 pm
He needs to go down to create himself a new swing, and he needs someone who’s willing to punish him if he reverts back to his current one that works in the minors to boost his stats.
I wouldn’t be averse to putting him on the DL for 15 days so he can rest his ankle and sort his head out.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:46 pm
@125: Douglass, you’ve got to reread that post. You can’t be so silly as to miss it. I agree RP and Wins aren’t the best determinant of individual success, 100%. However, at the end of the year they take the teams with the best win-loss records, not the teams with the best VORPs or OPS+ or ERA+. Team success comes from winning games, and winning games comes from scoring runs. Jeff helped us score a TON of runs last year, which led to us winning a good deal of games.
The best determinant of team success is wins, plain and simple.
RBIs are like Wins, you can’t put as much stock in them as you do with more objective stats,
All stats are objective.
but you don’t give up on a pitcher who won you 20 games the year before, just like you don’t give up on a guy who produced 170 runs.
First of all, no one gets 20 wins any more; second of all, I think everyone gave up on Rick Helling. Third of all, I don’t know what you mean by “produced,” but Francoeur has created 39 runs this year. Kelly Johnson has created 52. Infante, in about 1/3 as many plate appearances, has created 18.
Regardless of any other stats, runs produced and pitcher wins are the two most determinant of team success.
This is demonstrably false.
Now if the guy doesn’t win 10 over the next couple of years you can call it a fluke, but we’ve only given Jeff 5/8ths of a season.
No, we’ve given him three years, over which he has regressed to the point of being the worst player in baseball.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:48 pm
@ 123
I’m on my own then… I think Bobby is an ordinary manager that has had some extraordinary players during the Braves streak of division titles. Those years saw very few injury problems and ownership that kept the team loaded with high-caliber players.
I wonder what the Braves could have done in the 90’s with a Leyland, Torre, or Pinella at the helm.
The best determinant of team success is wins, plain and simple
No, wins are a measure of success, not a determinant. And if you don’t know how flawed the “win” statistic is, as it applies to pitchers, I recommend you visit http://www.firejoemorgan.com, where they’ll be more than happy to explain it to you.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Greyson has said so much bullshit in the past half hour, I don’t even know what to address at this point.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:50 pm
@128, NickC: Hey a civilized debater! I’d agree, except I worry that Jeff would just dominate with his current approach in the minors and it would just reinforce his errors. Just look at what he did in Mississippi for 3 days, and his comments on his dominance there. He needs some humbling, and he does need someone to kick him when he does stupid things… he also needs a little less media coverage, which includes the blogosphere harpies.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Does Chris Coste kill us or what?!? Geez.
ricflair
on July 27, 2008 at 3:52 pm
JoJo needs to throw some damn strikes
Jeremy
on July 27, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Throw a fucking strike.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:53 pm
@131 Mike: While I’m apt to agree that a large part of his success involves players, he’s a master at managing personalities, which is the most important aspect of managing today’s game.
I laugh that you’d include Torre amongst the better managers. I might have let you have LaRussa, and MAYBE Leyland or Pinella, but Torre benefited 100x more than Cox through insanely high payrolls and rosters so talented my dog could’ve managed them to at least one Series.
Mike, you’re certainly not on your own. Bobby used to be a tremendous manager. His flaws — poor game management, poor bullpen management, a disregard for stats despite an absolute belief in lefty-righty matchups — have magnified with age.
He’s not a good manager any more. And I’m not alone in saying that — Alex R. has been saying it for years, and Mac is saying it too. After a year like this, so are a lot of other people.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Tie ballgame. Vitornino has absolutely owned us this year. Victornio delenda est.
Jeremy
on July 27, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Wow, this is dreadful.
ricflair
on July 27, 2008 at 3:55 pm
JoJo you suck you piece of shit!!!!!!!!!!!
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Good God. Is there no lead safe? Six run lead yesterday, five run lead today…
I dislike Reyes.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 3:57 pm
This could get ugly in a hurry.
Greyson – I include Torre because he’s the only manager I’ve seen get an umpire to reverse a call… not once but twice 😀 I agree that the Yanks are the kings of high payroll and I’m sure that didn’t hurt Torre… but he WON with high payrolls unlike our most costly teams. Good point on LaRussa… I like him a lot.
But beware Phillies fans, I’m headed into the shower.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Alex R: we’re arguing two different things here… You’re arguing about the future, I’m talking about the past. Maybe I haven’t been clear enough.
But 1st, check your stats Rick Helling started at least 34 games in each of the three seasons after his 20 wins, and 30 and 24 the two years after that.
My point isn’t that wins are a good predictor of success, that’s not true. Wins are, however, by rule, the determinant of team success. When the season is over the teams with the most wins in each division make it to the playoffs, regardless of their OPS+. I’ll take a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA that wins me 20 or saves me 40 this year any time… of course if I’m choosing teams for next year I’d take a guy with a 3.00 ERA over him even if he hadn’t won a single game. Does that make more sense?
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Well it took me too long to type… did get ugly in a hurry. Jo-Jo blow-blows. What’s he got… two walks per inning? I HATE walks as they always seem to score. We sure don’t have a problem leaving OUR walked men on base.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Mike, yeah if I was making the list of best managers Torre, Cox, LaRussa, maybe Leyland, and probably Pinella are all on there, in no particular order.
As for Alex R., Bobby isn’t perfect, and I think he’s really suffered since Mazzone left. I’ve come to guess that Leo had a lot to do with managing the bullpen, which is IMO Bobby’s weakest aspect at this point. But all in all, the man knows more about baseball than all of the commenters in here combined, no offense to anyone intended.
jea
on July 27, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Cary, back at 113, if the Dodgers would give the Braves LaRoche for Francoeur, I wouldn’t hesitate to make that trade. I don’t know if there’s any possibility of it occuring, but it’s a good idea, for the Braves at least.
Damn, Cox is sticking with Reyes. He must want to challenge the team… teach them to play with adversity. I guess he’ll make a change when we’re down 8-5. I thought we found out yesterday that this team doesn’t have the mental dexterity to blow a lead and then take it back.
Edit… I see Tavarez is coming in. I stand corrected.
When the season is over the teams with the most wins in each division make it to the playoffs, regardless of their OPS+. I’ll take a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA that wins me 20 or saves me 40 this year any time… of course if I’m choosing teams for next year I’d take a guy with a 3.00 ERA over him even if he hadn’t won a single game. Does that make more sense?
Unfortunately, it makes no sense whatsoever, because you’re mixing tenses. If, by the end of the season in October, a pitcher on your team has won 20 games with a 5.00 ERA, then you don’t get to say “I’ll take,” because his performance that season already happened.
On the other hand, you can be fairly sure that since he pitched poorly in the regular season he has a good chance of pitching poorly in the postseason, when he’ll actually have to face good competition. So if you’re managing that team, you might not want to start him on Game 1, 4 and 7.
Bobby just replaced Reyes with Tavarez, probably to boost Jo-Jo’s confidence. “See — anybody can give up three-run homers to these guys!”
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:12 pm
That’s funny Alex 😀 …I just hope it doesn’t turn out to be true 🙁
jea
on July 27, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Take that, AAR! It’s just a solo homer! So the Braves are now one run down. Hmmm.
Tomas
on July 27, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Tavarez in a tied game…
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Right on cue…
eyeroll at AAR
Get your predictions straight, homeslice. Like Tavarez has the patience to wait for a 3-run homer.
Brian J.
on July 27, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Well, it was, except for the three-run part. I’m sure Tavarez will work on that.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 4:13 pm
I can see how Howard hits so many homeruns. This ballpark is a frickin’ joke. It’s like every flyball to left or right field is a homerun.
Tom
on July 27, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Gotta love this team.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Aw, crap. Maybe Cox does know what he’s doing. Other than Ohman, Soriano, and Gonzalez, the entire bullpen is a question mark.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:18 pm
#1 Brave killer at the plate… and to think he’s batting eighth for them. I watched the video of the homer he hit earlier and the announcers said it looks like he’s out of his slump. He looks like an MVP candidate from what I’ve seen.
Jeremy
on July 27, 2008 at 4:19 pm
“Braves Baseball, is there anything better”
Die. Whoever you are. Die.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Alex R.: Actually “I’ll take” isn’t the same as “I’d take.” In other words, like you said, I’ll take this pitcher into the playoffs. (Would I take the guy who had a 3.00 ERA over him if I had that opportunity? In the abstract, probably.) But I’ll take him into a postseason game with confidence knowing he knows how to put his team in a position to win, especially if he is my #2 or #3, which Jeff would probably be at best on this team.
All I’m saying is that Jeff’s run production last year has earned him at least a full season to turn this around. Just please look at the 4th season of the guy who just homered, Pat Burrell (in case another one happens before I click send.)
And wasn’t Julian Tavarez 40-something in 1995? How the hell is he still alive and ruining the Braves’ late innings?
Tom
on July 27, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Bobby must be in sell mode, too.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 4:26 pm
I thought I was done, but one more thing, I just can’t let it slide:
Greyson wrote: You really should look at the 4th year slumps of those three HoFers, they’re not quite as bad as Jeff’s but it shows plenty of data to suggest he could easily rebound and have a great year.
Besides the fact, that it’s assinine to compare Frenchy (the worst outfielder in baseball in 2008) to three hall of famers at this point, and despite how poorly constructed and irrelevant the comparison is – especially given Jeffy’s decline over the past 4 years – (you also arbitrarily used Bonds’ 4th year and Puckett and Winfields’ 2nd year – cherry picking stats for your own ends…), let’s just pretend it’s a legit comparison for a second:
Even in these players’ worst years, they were still SIGNIFICANTLY better than Frenchy. Given the wide gap between Frenchy and Replacement Level, let alone Hall of Fame level, you would think this would have been obvious. But it was you who made the comparison, not me.
Greyson, I guess someone just keeps giving Tavarez chances. You wouldn’t know anything about that, would you?
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I saw Tavarez pitch for the Charlotte Knights (who were Cleveland’s AAA club) back in 1994. He didn’t look like a spring chicken then.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I wonder how we convinced San Diego to give us Ring? He’s something special… more like a run-producing specialist than a left-handed hitter specialist.
I seem to recall that on JC’s site, Greyson argued that David Justice’s 1992 slump (in which he hit .256 .359 .446, purely a matter of BABIP) was comparable to Francoeur’s collapse, and also that Justice had the “advantage” of hitting behind the 1991 MVP (Terry Pendleton, whose OBP was .345) instead of all those slow base-cloggers who are always on base in front of Jeffy.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 4:34 pm
But he’s not defending Frenchy, he’d never do that. He’s defending Bobby, remember?
Tomas
on July 27, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Everyone seems in sell mode.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:38 pm
I wonder if Ring will be replaying yesterday’s at-bat with Howard up there now? He needs to win that battle this time.
I think I liked it better when we thought Ring was dead.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Oh no… I see an injury delay on Gameday. Tell me it’s not McCann hurt on a throw to the plate…
Dave
on July 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm
As if I didn’t hate Victorino enough. I hope he gets hit by a bus.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm
That’s exactly what it was Mike. He didn’t move for a couple minutes, he’s just now getting up…looks shaken.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Seriously if McCann is injured, sell everyone including Hudson. Punt this season and get 6-8 prospects for Hudson, Teix and whoever else.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Aw nutz. Did Victorino take him out?
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Victorino led with his head. Helmet to helmet contact.
Nasa from France
on July 27, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Let’s trade for Farnsworth so he can come and kick the sh… out of Victorino!
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Oh jeez…..why does it have to be McCann….
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Corky Miller: cleanup hitter.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Douglass, thanks for the update. That sounds like a concussion for sure. I’ve seen Braves catchers rolled numerous times… Olson’s broken leg, Estrada’s concussion… I sure hope this isn’t serious.
Other than Lonnie Smith in the World Series, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a Braves player try to break up a play at the plate. We always err on the side of caution. I know it’s just part of the game but it sure does make me mad.
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I hope B-mac doesn’t have a Ryan Church type injury….he’d probably be out for the rest of the year.
My god, Simpleson is talking about nitrogen again. Moron.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Braves’ outfield slugging percentage this season: .368
David Eckstein’s career slugging percentage: .362
jj3bagger
on July 27, 2008 at 4:53 pm
197, that certainly hurts. I cringed when I started hearing that. I am actually surprised the fans gave McCann a mild clap when he got up and left, I guess Philly baseball fans are classier than their football counterparts.
Wren just called down to Bobby now and said “Can we make some trades now ??”
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 4:53 pm
(Well Royce Ring and Blaine Boyer worked SO well yesterday, why not bring ’em back today!)
Douglass, first as I said those comments you replied to were months old and you didn’t even give me the whole thing, so I forgot which seasons I used. I recall the overall conversation was about age, so I went as close as I could around 24 and pick a season with a relative drop in production.
This was a long time ago, but I recall the comparison wasn’t Frenchy’s 24th year to these HoFers’ early career struggles. I wasn’t saying he’s a HoFer that would be ignorant, I was saying that players struggle early in their careers, sometimes for whole years.
Since, I’ve found much better comparisons: Dave Justice’s 4th season 1992, Andruw Jones at 24 years in 2001, Ryan Klesko in his 4th full season in 1997, and Dale Murphy’s 4th full season (well strike-shortened to be fair) in 1981. All Atlanta Braves outfielders groomed under Bobby Cox, and all despite their struggles played in at least 87% of their games, which is probably what Jeff will be at if we don’t make an unlikely extended playoff run. Again, not comparing Jeff to any of these guys directly, just notice the production declines.
If I was to pick a direct comparison, my best bet would be Pat Burrell, as I mentioned before. Look at his 4th season in 2003, Frenchy can beat those if he can make any sort of adjustment and have a decent last two months.
Okay, it’s been fun guys, but at 11-5 Gameday isn’t quite as interesting. Maybe THEY know something about Mark Teixeira’s future… I wish I had Frank Wren’s private line…
Chief Nocahoma
on July 27, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Worst Braves team since….
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I must have missed it, but where’s Carlyle? Isn’t he our long relief guy? The line on Reyes-Tavarez-Ring-Boyer, 11 runs on 10 hits and four walks… in only four innings. In a crucial game, that’s just mind boggling.
Well, I think Major League Baseball has found two great candidates to pitch the Home Run Derby next year in Reyes and Boyer.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Mac, I’d prefer if you’re going to take my comments out of context that you would at least provide a link to them so that people can actually read what I really said.
I mentioned how hitting behind Otis Nixon, Deion Sanders, and TP might create more RBI opportunities for a singles-doubles hitter (which Frenchy is) than hitting behind a trio of guys who are likely going to clear any of the upper order speed off the bases and have a hard time scoring from 2nd on hard hit singles to the outfield.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Okay, I had to stay for one more Frenchy at-bat!
Nick
on July 27, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Words cannot describe how big of a nightmare this weekend has been.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Sorry Greyson… Corky denied you.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:00 pm
A. Jones 2001: 19.6 VORP
R. Kelsko 1997: 19.1 VORP
D. Murphy 1981: 10.1 VORP
J. Francoeur 2008: -10.1 VORP
try again.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:03 pm
That’s it fellas… I’m out. At least the Phils score shouldn’t get much higher. Cox can use our good bullpen pitchers now as it’s the last few innings.
Hoping for a rally…
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:03 pm
I mentioned how hitting behind Otis Nixon, Deion Sanders, and TP might create more RBI opportunities for a singles-doubles hitter (which Frenchy is) than hitting behind a trio of guys who are likely going to clear any of the upper order speed off the bases and have a hard time scoring from 2nd on hard hit singles to the outfield.
You’re right. Batting behind players with OBP of .348, .346, and .345 provides SO MANY more RBI opportunities than batting behind .466, .384, & .386.
Try again.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Douglass!? Do you read? I’m sorry, I’m not all that interested in your VORP stats anyways, but you’re not even comparing the right ones. Compare each of the Brave outfielders with their surrounding years stats, not with Jeff’s. Then compare the relative declines, and see what you get.
And what happened to Justice?, who if I remember was closest among the four. And what about Pat Burrell?
Damn you Corky!
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Oh, and why aren’t you using VORPD stats? Wouldn’t that take even more of the fun out of watching the game?
Buddy!
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Pat Burrell, 2004? Easily the worst season of his career?
Burrell 2004: 13.1
Jeffy 2008: -10.1
Try again.
I’m not all that interested in your VORP stats anyway
Not my problem. From what I can tell you aren’t interested in any stats.
Coop
on July 27, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Be nice one to another, guys. We can disagree without rancour. (Or is that without Francour?)
Justice’s batting average went down 21 points from 1991 to 1992, his on-base percentage eighteen points, his slugging percentage 57 points (largely because of doubles not falling — he hit the same number of homers, in somewhat more PA).
Francoeur’s batting average is down sixty points from last year, his on-base percentage 58, his slugging 74. And he was starting from a much, much lower level. It’s a nonsensical argument.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:14 pm
I can’t edit my post above:
I misread Burrell’s numbers. You were referencing his 2003…which was indeed on Frenchy’s level of shittiness…Yikes.
Congrats, you finally found an example of a season as bad as Frenchys.
Frank
on July 27, 2008 at 5:17 pm
However, when it comes to dealing with people, he, like most great economic minds, isn’t always the clearest of head.
As an economist–one who has never to my knowledge intereacted with you in any way–I appreciate the kind words. JC’s advice to you seems about right.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Mac, It’s a wider margin, I’ll give you that. It isn’t nonsensical. I bet you Jeff passes Dave’s AVG and makes a run at the SLUG% and comes close to as many Runs Produced. At least give him the whole year.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 5:18 pm
From what I can tell you aren’t interested in any stats.
I bet Greyson loves the two-out RBIs.
csg
on July 27, 2008 at 5:19 pm
good news….hopefully Wren isnt influenced by Bobby and he completes a deal tonight to ship off anyone and everyone not named Chipper, Jair, and McCann.
Coop
on July 27, 2008 at 5:19 pm
If the Dodgers wanted to pay Andruw’s salary next year and give him to us for Frenchy, I’d welcome Druw back. He may be done, but I never saw any centerfielder play better defense; and I remember Cap Anson.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Greyson tell the truth. How do you know Francoeur?
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Douglass: I knew that Pat couldn’t have been judged well by any reasonable standard, I have renewed faith in your VORPal statistics. Now if Jeff only lives up to Pat Burrell, a 1st overall pick, will you still be unimpressed?
Francoeur would have to hit .300 for the rest of the season to finish the season at .256, and would have to slug well over .500 to finish at .446. These are both higher than his pre-2008 norms. There is no reason to think he is capable of doing this. And this ignores that getting on base is, by far, the most important offensive skill, and he won’t come close to what Justice did.
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 5:23 pm
I wanted B-mac to get some time off, but this isn’t what I meant.
Greyson, the difference between Francoeur and Burrell is as follows. Burrell’s worst season is an aberration, just about the worst imaginable performance he could have produced. His career-average performance makes him one of the better offensive players in all of baseball. Francoeur’s career-average performance is simply not acceptable from a corner outfielder.
Like every other comparison you’ve made, they are wholly incomparable players.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:26 pm
@222 Frank: my apologies if I’ve offended you. Perhaps I spoke a little too hasty, I don’t mean to show it as a fault, only to suggest that there is a wide segment of the population that is genetically predisposed to better understand logical and rational situations instead of the more nuanced and unpredictable interactions of people. Neither is any less deserving of respect. Nor was my comment in any way directed at all economists, perhaps I should’ve replaced “most” with “many.”
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:27 pm
There is not a single piece of evidence to suggest Frenchy will produce like Pat Burrell, including the fact that, by mere coincidence, they both had shitty 4th years.
Frank
on July 27, 2008 at 5:29 pm
He probably thinks Francouer is better than Babe Ruth because in Babe’s last season (with the Braves!) he hit only .180. Never mind that Ruth still had an ops approaching .800 and Babe’s 6 HR in 72 AB is nearly as many as Francoeur’s 9 HR in 386 AB.
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Escobar is untouchable and Kelly Johnson is not…why again?
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Would be nice to have McCann as tying run here…
Instead we get Corky.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Alex, Omar might be a possibility, but his arm isn’t going to be as meaningful as Jeff’s, and it would do less to help the future of the team beyond this season. That’s why I’m just saying we should forgive one awful year from Jeff, and wait to see if he makes an adjustment over the last two months, or by the beginning of next year. As a fan it just makes sense to support your backbone players, and like it or not, I guarantee you he’s back at starting RFer batting 5th or 6th in the 2009 opening day lineup. Just ask Phillie fans if all their bitching and moaning in 2003 (and they are the kings of it btw) got Pat traded? And he was 26.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:32 pm
So true… Maybe Corky can single home a run…?
jj3bagger
on July 27, 2008 at 5:32 pm
What in the world is going on ?? A rally ??
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:33 pm
one awful year from Jeff
You missed 2006?
jj3bagger
on July 27, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Nevermind, Corky does what he does.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Now we’ll be facing Lidge down by at least two runs with Kotsay-the Human Out-Johnson coming up.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Wow, now you’re going to start on Esco… You guys are so fickle. Anyways, it’s been swell, but I’ve got to run. GO BRAVES! We can still win this thing…
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Oh, and man look at that line for Ring… I think my slipup in blaming him yesterday was prophetic!
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Just ask Phillie fans if all their bitching and moaning in 2003 (and they are the kings of it btw) got Pat traded? And he was 26.
Again, terrible comparison. Burrell also had an established record of putting up 900+ OPS at every single level…something Jeffy hasn’t done a single time above the high school level.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:36 pm
The scary thing is that if McCann is really hurt, Corky will be catching for a while. I don’t care who’s catching at AAA, get them up.
Adam M
on July 27, 2008 at 5:36 pm
I just tuned back in… are people comparing Burrell to Francoeur? First someone brought Adam Dunn into the same conversation as Frenchy, now Burrell. Is there some sort of mission to compare Francoeur with his absolute opposites?
Also, why are both Teixeira and McCann out of the game? I notice that in this ‘blowout loss’ all six of the top hitters in Philly’s loaded lineup are still in the game.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Wow, now you’re going to start on Esco
Dan wasn’t starting in on Esco. He was starting in on the people that think KJ is any less valuable than Esco.
I think my slipup in blaming him yesterday was prophetic!
No, it wasn’t.
NickC
on July 27, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Someone better tell Kelly. When Tex is traded in the next couple of days, he’ll be the entire middle of the lineup.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Adam, McCann got concussed on a play at the plate and Tex was removed in a double-switch when they brought in Carlyle.
Tom
on July 27, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Folks, we all know that we’ll lose by one run, but – to steal a line from a great movie – frankly I don’t give damn for this game. All I care about is McCann, and not so much the player, but the man. Hope he is alright.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Douglass, Frenchy in 2006, just about a RP a game, with 13 OF assists on top of that. Not a great year, but for a 22 year old it was pretty decent. Look at what Pat Burrell did in the majors at 22 years old. Nothing.
And how does your quote of me relate to your comment? Did I miss Pat getting traded?
Let’s just all try this: think positive thoughts for Jeff for this one at-bat! Maybe, just maybe, it will make a difference…
When did Teix leave the game? I get neither tv nor radio where I am now. Has there been any update on McCann?
Thanks, Nick C. You answered before I asked.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Can Kotsay go 4 for 5 or draw a walk? If so, can Jeffy stay out of the double-play? Stay tuned…
Adam M
on July 27, 2008 at 5:43 pm
“Just ask Phillie fans if all their bitching and moaning in 2003 (and they are the kings of it btw) got Pat traded? And he was 26.”
Aren’t you ignoring the fact that most Phillies fans are idiots? The ‘mood’ of those in the stands in Philadelphia ceases to matter once you realize they’ve booed the Sixers in the Finals, the Phillies in the World Series, and the Eagles in the NFC Championship Game (and, on the first day of the season, down 3-0… my personal favorite).
Also, how can it be “one awful year.” 2006 was one of the worst in the majors.
Edit: McCann definitely has a concussion? If he does then he’ll have to be DL’d. Ryan Church is still hurt after that play with Escobar earlier this season.
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Dan! Move Francoeur to 6th before everyone jumps on you…
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:45 pm
You’re right, at 22, Burrell was putting up 1.000+ OPS in the minors.
I’m not going to try to correct (for the millionth time) your use of Runs Produced again. I’ll just say: No it wasn’t decent at all. In fact, it was terrible. LIke tihs year, he put up a sub .300 OBP. Like this year, he put up a negative VORP number. And like this year, he was one of 2 players in the whole league to have over 10% of a teams at-bats and put up a negative VORP number.
Next.
Josh W.
on July 27, 2008 at 5:45 pm
So I left during the middle of the game, only to come back and see Prado and the Hamster batting 3-4. I read that BMac got hurt, but why was Teix taken out?
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 5:46 pm
I’m sure the FO will see the 10 runs as a positive & proof that this team keeps fighting to the last. Welcome Jason Bay……
Dan
on July 27, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Dan! Move Francoeur to 6th before everyone jumps on you…
I was going to put Francoeur fourth before I thought that even Cox wouldn’t do that.
If it was me managing, among those people, Francoeur would bat seventh, above Corky Miller and the pitcher.
Teixeira was taken out because he was traded to the Angels.
No, seriously, he was taken out because the Braves were losing 12-5 and had already lost McCann to injury and there seemed no reason to risk Mark.
Adam M
on July 27, 2008 at 5:48 pm
@261 Who was the other one? Pierre? Guzman? This is fun…
FWIW, Douglass, I think you’re pissing into the wind. There’s no point in using reason with anyone who sees Frenchy’s 2006 season as anything but bad. Sure, he still had potential to develop plate discipline and increase his power, but his swing seems to have gotten longer and his eye worse. He’s one of the two or three worst everyday hitters in baseball right now, and when that happens, you can’t simply call it an aberration.
Jason
on July 27, 2008 at 5:48 pm
What the hell, was that Francoeur taking an unintentional walk while laying off no fewer than two fastballs at or above the letters?
Also, if I were filling out the lineup card:
Blanco
Kelly
Escobar
Teixeira
Infante
Kotsay
Frenchy
Hamster
Pitcher
Greyson
on July 27, 2008 at 5:49 pm
2006: He was 22 and he played 162 games in the Major Leagues, and knocked in 103 runs.
2 walks back-to-back. Classic at-bat… I told you he’d have at least one a game… 2 today… I’m out folks, goodnight!
Phillip
on July 27, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Here’s the ATL Braves lineup for August 1st, 2008:
Escobar
Kotsay
Bay
Tex
Franceour
Kelly
Infante
Miller
RBI IS A TEAM-DEPENDENT STAT. The main reason he had so many RBI is that he had a lot of baserunners in front of him. If you keep bringing up RBI you’re just proving that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Tom
on July 27, 2008 at 5:51 pm
MLB Gameday just said “Foul (runner going)”. Two runs down in the bottom of the ninth. Think about that!
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 5:52 pm
He knocked in 103 runs
Because he played 162 games batting behind Chipper and Andruw.
Adam
on July 27, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Well, the only reason he’ll be back is because people keep talking to him.
Hey, whatever, it’s great that he walked twice. Yay. Time to sell.
Josh W.
on July 27, 2008 at 5:54 pm
And by Francoeur walking twice in the same game, Greyson’s comparison between Frenchy and 3 Hall of Famers becomes justified.
Or not.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Well, the weather should get the Win instead of whatever Phillies pitcher they give it to (geez, what are the odds of Eaton getting back to back wins?). No way Campillo gives up 11 runs through six.
Phooey.
Tom
on July 27, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Ballgame. On a positive note, the Braves will definitely become sellers now.
Well, the only reason he’ll be back is because people keep talking to him.
Sorry. I’ll take responsibility on this one. I probably fisked him more than anyone else.
Mike
on July 27, 2008 at 5:56 pm
I’m ready to see Ring designated for assignment and Boyer sent back to AAA. Send Reyes down and bring Morton back while they’re at it.
oldtimer?
on July 27, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Tex traded yet? The only reason he would be taken out is because he was traded, or the talks are getting very serious.
'Rissa
on July 27, 2008 at 5:57 pm
I predicted before this series began that we’d go 1-2 in Philly to make it a 3-3 road trip. A .500 road trip should equal being sellers on July 27th, but it’s not as big of a statement as it would have been if we’d gone 1-5, or something.
When everyone was saying that a good road trip could mean being buyers and a bad one would mean sellers, I thought, “no way we do anything but go .500”. And the team did not disappoint.
ricflair
on July 27, 2008 at 5:58 pm
DOUGASS is on a roll today!!!!
Ron
on July 27, 2008 at 5:58 pm
It takes real skill to score 27 runs in a 3 game series with Chipper not playing at all and still lose 2 games. At least it wasn’t another 1 run road loss.
Frank
on July 27, 2008 at 5:59 pm
What’s the latest on Bennett, Diaz, and Stockman? Bennett in particular would be nice to have back about now; not that he’s great but the pen’s been crummy.
ricflair
on July 27, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Tex was just traded to the Reds!!! Just kidding.
oldtimer?
on July 27, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Good observation Ron. That is downright scary.
Douglass
on July 27, 2008 at 6:02 pm
What’s the matter, Ric? Having a hard time finding a stat that supports any of the ridiculous arguments you’ve made this week?
Ron
on July 27, 2008 at 6:05 pm
I just read in the AJC that Diaz had a setback on his knee and had another MRI which showed just inflammation, so don’t expect him in Atlanta anytime soon.
Douglass how about this. Fuck You Asshole!!
Is this your damn site? No so shut the hell up!! Anytime someone has something to say you do not agree with the world ends.
Josh
on July 27, 2008 at 6:06 pm
My Dad knows absolutely NOTHING about sabermetrics. Really nothing besides what he sees on TV when the players come up to bat. And he knows Francoeur sucks.
Use code “Journal” for a 5% discount.
Nice video, Mac. From now on, I’m going to picture Francoeur as a Gumby.
Jeff said after the game he thought it was impossible that they lose the game. That must be why he made that inane baserunning mistake.
“Never in my wildest dreams did I think we could lose.”
I think that sums Jeff up pretty well.
“Never in my wildest dreams did I think he was gonna throw me three straight chin level fastballs!”
He also said he was glad he’s not a GM. I think we all share this sentiment.
I just re-read the comments through the yesterday’s recap, and I must say that I’m confused as to how people believe there is no market for Tex. What’s the basis for this? Are you monitoring Wren’s phone line? Are you privy to inside information? I ask because everything I’ve read suggests there absolutely IS a market for Tex. In fact, the holdup, from the sound of things, is Wren’s decision to sell, not other teams’ reluctance to trade for a great-hitting, sure-handed first baseman. Everyone is reporting that the Braves will be able to make a deal as quickly as they decide they do want to make a deal. From the sound of things, Wren has already had extensive discussions with several clubs–the Red Sox, Rays, Angels, even D’Backs.
Well, top story on MLB Trade Rumors a bit ago was a beat reporter for the D-Backs saying they have no interest. That may be false, though.
I think people are saying there is no market because they are expecting to get back 5 prospects like the Braves gave up for Tex last year. But they are forgetting that was for a full year and 2 months of Tex plus 2 months of Ron Mahay. If the Braves could get one elite outfield or first base prospect for Tex, I would consider that a good deal and do it.
I think teams have to play low interest so they dont pay through the nose.
If your in contention and you need a big bat in the middle of your lineup and you look, there is only 1 big bat available, Tex.
Wren has the upper hand. I dont care if he is a rental or not, teams pay out the nose for rentals on a yearly basis, so I dont know how this year is any different, and this guy is a legit stud.
Im sure if Wren works it right he can get a nice load back. Especially if its a young major leaguer with a huge upside and a minor league pitcher, it could really help us.
you never know whats going to happen with draftpicks
Well, at least we’re facing Joe Blanton today. If that was the Phillies’ idea of a quality deadline pickup, they’re in real trouble.
Oh wait…I almost forgot. We’re supposed to be rooting for our own team to lose in the most painful and ridiculous way imaginable. How silly of me.
Duh, Nick.
I can’t imagine that there isn’t a huge amount of interest in Teixera. Teixera is the only bat available that can make a legitimate difference in a team’s success. Sorry, Raul Ibanez isn’t that guy.
It would, however, be pretty ridiculous for Wren to be looking for the same deal as JS paid last year. That would be like buying a new car, then wanting to get the price you paid for it 5 years later. Sorry, doesn’t work that way, Frank!
Totally off-topic, but do we have any Dave Ramsey fans on here? What do you guys think of him?
I’m a Dave Ramsey fan, Rob. Have a good buddy who works for him, actually.
Also, there’s no way Wren is looking for 5 prospects for Teix.
Get one outfield bonafide prospect or established major leaguer (not a suspect) and a couple live arms at the AA level and I’m happy.
I go to Tex and point blank ask him if the contract we offer him if he will accept it and if he says no then make the deal, period.
I has to be our best offer if we do it that way, Chief, but assuming it is, I don’t really have a problem with that.
I do think we need to get a first baseman back in the deal. A Major League first baseman. As in, the team we trade him to has to trade us their first baseman, because this may be the only chance we have to get one. Neither Ohman nor Kotsay will fetch a Major League first baseman in any deal we might strike involving them, and the free agent market at that position is pretty awful this offseason, excluding Tex.
Warning: unsolicited optimism that pains even me to write.
Yesterday sucked. It was the worst choke I’ve seen in a long time, and I watch a lot of Mets games.
That being said, I expected to lose with Hampton on the mound and Cole Hamels’s dominance of the Braves this year. I think most people did. So even though yesterday was pathetic, it’s still just another loss. If we win today, we still take the series, which is all we could realistically hope for before the series started.
Oh, and Frenchy sucks.
BPro is reporting that in fact there are six teams interested in Tex, and that the market is starting to show dramatic interest.
http://tinyurl.com/5ls4xg
It was the worst choke I’ve seen in a long time, and I watch a lot of Mets games.
Rob, I say this as a friend: save yourself.
I hope that if we decide to sell, that B-mac starts getting some time off. Damn.
I just looked at the Philly radar & it shows some big storms about to roll through there.
Not too bad.
That’s Our Jeffy!™
(Really, though — who didn’t see that coming?)
@20 below:
Odds are, Bobby shifted KJ down so he wouldn’t have three lefties in a row (McCann, Kotsay, and KJ) followed by the Human Out Machine. Plus, as has been noted here, Kelly’s been in a touch of a slump lately. Combine the two, and there you are.
How is Johnson hitting behind F-cur? How is any body hitting behind him? Why is he in MLB?
As Tom Petty might say, Yer So Bad. Seriously.
I think that win or lose, the Braves are buyers. I still think that the team is delusional & thinks they are contenders.
3 consecutive posts is a record for me. Since I’m the only one here, I’ll just have a conversation with my self…..
“What is E.T. short for?” “I don’t know Phillip, what?” “Because his legs are so tiny”…dum de dum de dum….
We are getting some rough weather here in DC and we are not far from Philly.
At the risk of inviting ridicule, as bad as yesterday was, I do think we should give Hampton some credit for actually getting back on the mound when no one thought he would. He didn’t pitch well but what would you expect after three years. He has had a long road back and, if nothing else, at least he can say he made it. And it really wasn’t his fault the Braves lost.
If the Braves can get a decent return for Tex, they should take it. But, I repeat, I don’t think they will unless they get blown away because of Bobby.
If you are a pitcher facing the Braves and you don’t throw only shoulder high fastballs to Jeff Francoeur, you’re an idiot. He can’t hit them and he will swing at them every frakking time. It’s unreal.
Good thing Terry Pendleton wants him to keep his aggressiveness at the plate.
I think Bobby truly believes those three days in Mississippi fixed Francoeur.
How the hell is he batting above Johnson and Infante? All he had to do there is put the ball in play and the Braves would have another run.
The Phillies announcers just laughed at Francoeur. They actually laughed out loud, startled and amused and probably relieved that he’s on our team.
Why can’t Bobby see just how horrible he is? Why?
How many pitches does Francouer average per at bat?
A: Three. Strike one, strike two…
A: Three. Strike one, strike two…
That’s ignoring all the times he grounds into an inning-ending double play by swinging at the first pitch after the pitcher has walked the bases loaded.
(For the curious, he’s actually averaging 3.42 P/PA. Also interesting is that his overall swing percentage of 54% is the lowest mark of his career, while his contact rate [76%] is the highest.)
Probably two-point-something. All those first-pitch outs and all those strikeouts probably meet in the middle somewhere.
Wow, that was Francouer caliber base-running.
Was Utley really trying to score from first on a single?
I’ve come to dread the rare occasions when Frenchy doesn’t do something stupid or ineffective- they make it more likely that he’ll be in the lineup and dragging the team down day after life-sucking day.
I’ve come to dread the rare occasions when Frenchy doesn’t do something stupid or ineffective
They also make the conversation around here just that much less entertaining.
And lo, the heavens open up. Rain delay time.
And here comes the rain.
Ohman’s intro is on YouTube.
According to Baseball Prospectus’ Will Carroll:
The Yankees’ acquisition of Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte last night may have upped the ante, as industry sources are indicating that discussions for Braves first baseman Mark Teixeira have heated up dramatically over the past 48 hours, with as many as six teams now interested, including some new parties from the American League. Teixeira has consistently been a big second-half player and is the best bat available at the deadline. As an aside, he’ll also be worth two draft picks when he likely departs whatever team he’s playing for to pursue free agency. That combination means that Atlanta will be looking for a sizable package similar to the kinds received in the past for MVP-level players like Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran.
Francouer just struck out swinging while hitting of the tee during the rain delay.
I’ve come to dread the rare occasions when Frenchy doesn’t do something stupid or ineffective…
Oh, I dunno, it’s nice to see Lando once in a while.
Out of all JF’s recent bone-headed miscues, that 1st inning strikeout has to rank right up there. Before the ball left Blanton’s hand, Coste was jumping up and to the right for a loaction that only French would love. I would have pulled him from the game and sent him down right then. He has to go. The airmail to the screen for the play at the plate last week had my boot ready. Today’s strike out with 2nd and 3rd one out against Blanton has me with it right up his rear. He has to go!!!!
The airmail to the screen for the play at the plate last week…
Which one?
Dan, he’s batting 6th because Bobby wanted to split up the lefties and the righties, and he’s got more pop than Omar. Also, if you’re trying to straighten him out, the last thing you want to do is put him in a situation, like batting 8th, where he gets NO protection behind him.
Also, remember it was Brian McCann on third. He wasn’t going to score on just any ball put in play. That’s Jeff’s problem, he’s always trying to do too much.
Learned something new today: Jeff Francoeur’s mother is named “Greyson.”
Greyson, Jeff could hit 2nd and it still wouldn’t be enough protection to keep him from sucking.
@42 – Jeff’s problem is that he sucks at the game of baseball…
he’s got more pop than Omar
Jeff Francoeur, 2008 SLG: .370
Omar Infante, 2008 SLG: .419
re:
I wouldn’t actually try to argue that Jeff doesn’t potentially have more pop than Omar…but for the sake of discussion:
Omar’s slugging percentage is a full 50 points higher than Jeff’s this year…he fucking blows.
Hah, great minds tink alike, AAR.
Oh, come on Douglass, give Frenchy some credit – it’s only 49 points lower…
And it looks like the Mets are going to take their game against the Cards.
Douglass, you are an intelligent individual, sir.
I did not get a chance to see the game yesterday (we got BOS and NYY here in this part of Virginia—thanks, FOX), so that was the first time I saw Ohman’s intro. That was awesome! I’m still laughing at it…
re Joshua:
Those numbers were from before Jeffy struck out on three pitches today…
😉
I hadn’t seen the Ohman intro either — that is very funny, especially “Prado spelled backwards is Nitram Odarp.”
Yes, he’s mostly doing Will Ferrell channeling Caray, but I think I prefer the Ohman version to Farrell’s.
Does anyone want to put speculation around why Kotchman is sitting out today?
Nice observation Joshua.
I’ll be skeptical until I see it happen or at least hear some chatter around the internet…but veeery intersting.
@46 Alex R., Frenchy’s career Slugging is .445, to .388 for Omar. Frenchy’s career AB/HR is about 27.3, Omar’s is 52. Even if you only look at this season Frenchy homers better than every 43 ABs. I’m not saying he’s great, but he deserves to bat 6th over Omar. Of course Omar deserved to bat 5th yesterday for a number of obvious reasons. When it comes to filling out a lineup Bobby knows what he’s doing.
And Ron, it wouldn’t be smart to bat him 2nd, but if you’re trying to fix a guys many problems, especially one with so much potential who has proven he can put up ML-caliber numbers over two and a half seasons, it’s best not to throw him completely under a bus. Batting him 8th would be doing just that.
I certainly plan to, Joshua.
You gotta think we wouldn’t be playing Tex today if a deal was done though.
re Grayson:
I strongly disagree with your use of Frenchy’s career numbers to say he deserves to bat ahead of Infante in a lineup. Given Frenchy’s decline and current level of performance, that’s pretty misleading. His power numbers have declined every year he’s been in the league, to the point this year that Francoeur is basically a singles hitter.
When power numbers are as meager as what Frenchy and Omar are putting up, the difference is negligible. Much more important in comparing these kinds of players: OBP. For this reason, not only should Omar be batting above Frenchy, but Frenchy shouldn’t even be playing at all. As has been demonstrated countless times on this blog, he is significantly worse than replacement level. (Unlike Omar, who as a utility man, is comfortably valued above replacement level.)
Douglass, I’m not trying to defend Jeff, I’m defending Bobby here. But like I said even if you look at this season’s numbers it’s obvious Jeff is more likely to hit a HR than Omar, not to mention Omar is probably a faster runner, which is more important at the 8 spot. OBP obviously matters, and Jeff’s is awful this season, but in the NL OBP matters more in the 8 hole than in the 6 hole. Also, as I said, the main reason I’d bat Jeff 6th in this lineup is to give him some protection, so that you’re putting him in an opportunity where he isn’t doomed to fail. That way, if he does fail, which given this year he likely will, you can blame it on him, and not the fact that the pitcher wasn’t going to give him anything to hit with Campillo batting behind him.
More importantly, when is this rain going to let up? I’m out west without TV, does it look as bad as it sounds?
Greyson is one of those random soccer moms that goes to Braves fans about 5 times per year that just loves Francouer no matter what and somehow made her way to this board. I picture Tammy Wynette playing in the background, Stand by your Man.
Oh, God, everybody, stop sniping.
I looked at the radar, and the worst of the rain seemed to have passed. I would guess it would stop raining in half an hour or so.
like I said even if you look at this season’s numbers it’s obvious Jeff is more likely to hit a HR than Omar, not to mention Omar is probably a faster runner, which is more important at the 8 spot. OBP obviously matters, and Jeff’s is awful this season, but in the NL OBP matters more in the 8 hole than in the 6 hole.
So because Jeff is marginally more likely to hit a homerun than a guy that doesn’t hit homeruns, we should put his .286 OBP in the middle of the lineup, batting behind our only good hitters?
I’m sorry, but regardless of what arbitrary rules about speed and protection you want to apply, that’s just not right. Regardless of “the need for speed in the 8 hole” (since when is Omar speedy?) or “Frenchy’s need for protection” (doomed to failure? he’s already failing.), you just can’t put a blackhole in the 5 and 6 hole like we do with him, period. Bat him 8th, bench him, I don’t give a fuck…but please, stop putting him in the middle of the lineup, he is absolutley KILLING us there. It’s indefensible at this point.
OBP > protection and speed considerations
(Neither one of them has enough speed for it to matter anyway.)
Kyle Davies looking like Cy Young for the Royals today.
I just registered at http://www.halosheaven.com …seems to be a pretty active Angels blog.
They’ve mentioned that Kotch isn’t in the lineup, but there’s been literally no speculation on their end that it’s related to a deal. I registered a name, but they have a 24 hour waiting period before I can post…was gonna try to get some of their thoughts on the issue.
Just saw Mahay’s stats this year. That dude is a flat out stud, in an extremely quiet way.
Thanks for the weather report Mac.
Douglass, you can have your opinion. I just don’t share it and neither does Bobby. Someone asked a question as to why he was batting sixth, and I gave what was probably Bobby’s rationale. Batting Jeff 8th isn’t the right move from a personnel standpoint, you might as well just release him.
As for replacing him, the Braves simply don’t have any better options right now. The best move is to support him, work out his major approach problems, and hope he finally realizes his potential, or at least gets back to producing like he did in his first 3 seasons.
Anything is a better option. When Chipper comes back, playing Infante fulltime in right would be better. Playing Anderson in right would be better. Playing Anderson in center and Kotsay in right would be better. Francoeur is a pit of outs and he’s killing the team. At this point, the only reason to play him is if you’re looking for a better draft pick.
Frankly, I’d be hitting Infante ahead of both Frenchy and KJ at this point.
Wow that Ohman intro is absolutely hillarious. He must not be planning on staying long. He absolutely destroyed the whole lineup. I wonder if the FO approved that intro.
No plug but if you all like text sims, OOTP 9 is an epically awesome game. I traded Teix for Conor Jackson, Geraldo Parra and Jarrod Parker last night. Parra is a stud RF prospect and Parker was the 2nd ranked SP prospect in their organization. I’m currently 33-29 and the Phillies are in 1st place.
/nerdy
Just got a chance to watch that Ohman intro, that was great. “Says here he’s 210 pounds, not buyin it, not buyin it.” That’s awesome.
Listened to the debacle yesterday, no more needs to be said about that. Went the the monumental Isotopes-Grizzlies AAA game last night and got to see “closer” Kevin Gryboski close out the Isotopes. Wow, those were two terrible minor league teams. Got my first foul ball I have ever gotten in the seemingly thousands of games I have been to, so I had that going for me, which was nice.
Batting Jeff 8th isn’t the right move from a personnel standpoint, you might as well just release him.
What does that even mean? He’d still be in the starting lineup which is more than he deserves. Because it would hurt his feelings? Do you really think he would be even worse than he already has been batting 8th? How is that even possible?
As for replacing him, the Braves simply don’t have any better options right now…
Really? That’s funny because every single player we’ve sent to the plate this year has better numbers than him. Could’ve fooled me.
JC has done some pretty interesting work on the issue of “protection” and whether it actually helps a hitter to have a good hitter behind him. Short answer: it looks like a myth.
Greyson, I’m going to have to disagree with you — Francoeur has killed too many rallies by batting behind our good hitters, coming up with men on base, and failing utterly, for me to accept any further justification for keeping him high in the batting order. I agree with Mac: we can’t be trying “to fix a guys many problems.” If he has so many problems that he can’t play at a major league level, then getting more major league playing time isn’t going to solve them. Certainly, batting 6th instead of 8th isn’t going to do the trick. All it’s going to do is kill more rallies.
Mac, I would like to see both Anderson and Brandon Jones get another chance at more playing time. But you can’t say definitively that either would be a significant improvement, not to mention that you also have Gregor Blanco who isn’t putting up All-World stats in left. You’ve got to give Jeff a chance to sort out these issues, and at the least recoup some value out of him. I would hope and expect that both Anderson and Jones get more time come September though.
I don’t see as much of Jeff as you guys do back East I’m sure, so that’s probably a large part of it, but you can’t give up on a guy that put up the numbers he did over the last 3 years. Not after only 5/8ths of the season. You’ve got to try and work his problems out.
The Phillies went through this a few years back with Pat Burrell, who never quite became the star they expected, but he’s proven to be a legitimate ML starter. If the Phillies can have patience with their idiotic fans, we should at least be able to give Jeff a couple more months before we cut the cord.
Now let’s get that tarp off and get back to baseball!
Have they announced when this game is going to start again ??
Infante’s career OBP of .301 is lower than Francoeur’s.
Infante has been in the majors a lot more seasons than Francoeur, but hasn’t played in many more games than Francoeur and has a little around 200 less career at-bats than Francoeur.
More perspective:
There are only 3 players in the NL who have both at least 10% of their teams plate appearances and a negative VORP rating:
Freddie Sanchez, Jeff Francoeur, & Khalil Greene.
Is it a coincidence that the Pirates, Braves, & Padres are all already out of contention? I think not.
The major leagues is not where players “work out their issues” when the issues in question are as severe as Jeffy’s. That’s what the minor leagues are for.
But you can’t say definitively that either would be a significant improvement
Yes you can. Just getting Francoeur out of the lineup would be addition by subtraction at this point.
Also, LOL at Greyson bagging on Blanco’s numbers in a post defending Francoeur.
Douglass, management, in any field, is all about putting your assets in a position where they can succeed and grow. Jeff swings at bad pitches, and unless the bases are juiced, there will be no reason to throw him anything but bad pitches if Campillo is the only protection behind him. Batting him eighth is setting him up for failure. Now you can argue he could benefit from time in the minors, or an occasional rest, but if he’s in there you can’t justify batting him 8th.
As for numbers this year, you’ve got it right. Jeff’s are awful, but his potential is there and is real, and it has showed up at least one at-bat per game over the last 4 or 5 that I’ve dissected.
Alex: As for JC’s work, I’m unfamiliar with it, but I think that’s a pretty statistically rigid opinion. Anyone who has ever watched a game of baseball knows that a batter gets better pitches to hit if the pitcher doesn’t want to have to face the guy behind him, it only makes sense. Statistically, from a macro standpoint, it probably all evens out, but especially with a guy like Jeff it is going to matter.
Oh-No Reyes starting instead of Campillo now (why they replace pitchers just because of a rain delay I do not know.)
Goodbye win.
So Campillo probably won’t get back in the game after this lengthy delay, right? That sucks. Who’s Bobby gonna send out there… Reyes?
but if he’s in there you can’t justify batting him 8th.
Several of us in this thread did just that.
This isn’t even going to be one of those slow train wrecks. Reyes will blow this lead quick.
A walk, another hit by Coste, and another walk… crap! Reyes better get his head out of his ass. Dan, you may be right.
Man, he can’t find the strike zone…
Anyone who has ever watched a game of baseball knows that a batter gets better pitches to hit if the pitcher doesn’t want to have to face the guy behind him, it only makes sense.
It makes sense, which is why everyone thinks it’s true, but it’s not remotely substantiated by the data. What JC found is that a pitcher is just as likely to make better pitches to a guy with a great hitter behind him, to reach back and make a better pitch so he doesn’t have to face the great hitter with a guy on base.
you can’t give up on a guy that put up the numbers he did over the last 3 years
Over the last three years, he has been one of the worst players in all of baseball (2006), a league-average player (2007), and the worst player in baseball (2008).
Douglass, IMO the minors won’t work for Jeff because he’ll just dominate there like he did in his 3 days in Mississippi. He needs to be humbled and he needs to regain his confidence against ML pitching. But, I’ve had enough of trying to explain my reasoning to a closed mind with an open mouth… and I wasn’t “bagging” on Blanco, just pointing out that there is a lot of playing time available in the Braves outfield, and Jeff’s production over the last 3 years has earned at least a healthy share of it, much more than Blanco’s decent numbers over 90 games this year. (Blanco, who hails from South America, is also basically just a LF, he couldn’t overthrow McCann if he tried.)
Reyes escaped. Thankfully he only had to get one out.
Next inning, next inning…
Considering that JC wrote me after Greyson popped up here saying that he had to ban Greyson for baiting other posters, it seems unlikely that Greyson is unfamiliar with JC’s work.
Also, you’re whole premise about “potential” and “not giving up on a guy that put up the numbers he did over the last 3 years” is flawed.
Have you looked at his numbers from the past few years and even in the minor leagues?
He had a career OBP of .300 in the minors. 2008 will be the second time in his 3 and half year old career that he finished a season with a negative VORP. His second season with a OBP below .300. His power numbers have declined every year he’s been in the league. In nearly 2000 MLB at-bats, he strikesout nearly 4 times as much as he walks. 2000 at bats: not exactly a small sample size. When is this potential going to show itself?
Regardless of his BA with RISP and RBI totals from the past couple years, if you look at his numbers, Francoeur is exactly the kind of player you have to be concerned about, exactly the kind of player you send back to the minors, exactly the kind of player you don’t bat in the middle of the lineup, and given his off-field brattiness, exactly the kind of player you have to think about giving up on.
I hate the Phillies’ blue caps.
Wait, I’m the closed minded one?
You haven’t provided a single piece of evidence to support a single one of your points. I can’t even count how many stats I’ve cited in our little debate. Yet I’m the closed minded one?
Apparently, I’ve never watched a baseball game. And my co-author wasn’t a two-time all-conference college baseball pitcher/catcher.
re: 92
Interesting. It really makes me wonder about this guy’s connection to Francoeur. Is he his Mom? Work for the PR firm that represents him? Relative? Starry-eyed aquaintence? Someone stranger with an obsession from afar? His dugout fluffer?
The day people decide that they don’t have to waste their lives winning an argument against one person who happens to be obviously wrong…that day will be a very good day.
Internet messageboards and blogs will wither away and die, but it will still be a very good day.
I love how Greyson keeps citing Jeffy’s 2006 season as a positive.
Re: 98
What would be the point in coming to a site like this if there was no debate?
Alex, the last three years I was referring to were ’05, ’06, and ’07. While his overall numbers weren’t majorly impressive, he did knock in over 100 runs two years in a row, on top of scoring 80+. I know these numbers are affected by lineups, and aren’t considered as objective as some of his less stellar numbers, but the fact remains that 28% of our runs last year came from direct contributions of Jeff.
Again, as for JC’s data, I’m sure it all works out in the overall scheme, but with Jeff in particular I’d much rather him get “better pitches” trying to get him out, than eye-high fastballs from a pitcher who doesn’t care if he walks. The numbers show Jeff does better when he isn’t the last hope, which is what the 8th hole hitter is.
Now let’s get some runs!
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics: even if you win, you’re still retarded.
Jeffy’s getting eye-high fastballs wherever he hits in the lineup. Why on earth would a pitcher throw him anything else?
“Protection” as a major factor has been quite thoroughly debunked on several occasions. If there’s anything to it, it certainly doesn’t apply to Francoeur, because he is stupid and swings at everything. Just throw him eye-high fastballs that Ted Williams couldn’t hit and he’ll swing at them.
Yeah, we’ve all seen that .gif, Dan…really original stuff there. Honestly, I don’t understand that point of view…as I said a second ago, would you rather we all agree on everything?
re Grayson:
he did knock in over 100 runs two years in a row
Jeffy’s 2006 is a case study in why RBI totals are a terrible stat to evaluate performance.
I was just joking. Of course debate makes this site more interesting.
Francoeur’s problem is that he is an out-making machine.
Nice to see Douglass agreeing with everyone here again today.
Dugout fluffer?!? Ewwwwwww… 🙂
I don’t want to give up on Francoeur but this isn’t the time to be patient and help him rediscover how to do his job. It’s not like this is May. The Braves have to overtake three very good teams to win the division… hell, they’re not even a .500 ballclub at this point.
Every game has to be approached like a must-win in my opinion. I’d put the hottest bats/gloves in the lineup and let everyone know that playing time would be determined by what you’ve done lately and not your potential.
@99. Debate is one thing…for instance, I’m here to read up on what people think of different packages we get in return for Tex. There’s plenty of room for debate there, I think.
The Frenchy thing, however, is not debatable. It’s more like beating a dead horse.
While his overall numbers weren’t majorly impressive
This is a bit of an understatement for a player who is, again, the worst player in baseball.
I’d much rather him get “better pitches” trying to get him out, than eye-high fastballs from a pitcher who doesn’t care if he walks.
Pitchers don’t care if he walks because he doesn’t walk. He is unable of distinguishing between a ball and a strike. They don’t have to throw him a strike, because he’ll swing anyway, and either strike out or make weak contact. (I’m convinced that his .262 BABIP this year isn’t entirely a fluke — he gets himself out on bad pitches far too often.)
the fact remains that 28% of our runs last year came from direct contributions of Jeff.
This is horrible math, but I’ll let it go, because the fact remains that he directly contributed to many, many more runs not scoring. We would have scored many, many more runs the past three years if he had not been in our lineup — that’s what having a negative VORP means.
Fair enough, Adam. I would tend to agree with you if the likes of Greyson didn’t continue to come here to put the Frenchy-apologist spin on things.
Wild pitch! That makes it much harder to hit into a double-play.
And… another data point for the “Francoeur Sucks” study.
Trade Jeff Francoeur to Los Angeles straight up for Dodgers 3B Andy LaRoche. They’ve just sent LaRoche to AAA again and obviously don’t think much of him. I’ll bet he could be had for Frenchy.
Then put LaRoche at 1B for the remainder of the year after Tex is traded, spotting him at 3B to give Chipper a break once a week or so.
That gives us a cheap young player under control who I think has better potential than Kotchman and Loney anyway.
In a few years, LaRoche would go to 3B permanently to take over for Chipper.
OK who is a worse everyday player right now Frenchy or Andruw?
I wonder if Jeff’s favorite cereal is Special K?
Mac, I’d definitely suggest taking JC’s personnel opinions with a grain of salt. He has a great statistical mind, and I don’t doubt that his statistical analyses were correct in assessing the overall picture (though as I said each individual situation is different.) However, when it comes to dealing with people, he, like most great economic minds, isn’t always the clearest of head. As for my “ban,” which was more than mutual I simply asked him why he censored one of my comments, to which his first reply was, and I quote: “Go away jackass, I don’t put up with this garbage.” He later apologized, but never provided any response to my polite request. (If you’d like to see the whole discussion, I’d be happy to supply you with it Mac.) And I am unfamiliar with the specific study that Alex refered to, not his larger body of work.
I’m with Adam though, but I do worry that what I’m experiencing here is the same thing I’ve cursed every October. So many Atlanta fans are awful, not only do you guys not show up at the stadium, but you don’t support your team. Embrace fandom, maybe put away your statistics for one afternoon and watch a ballgame!
That counts as a hit, Kelly, you can do that more often.
KJ!
Zomar!
Attaboy, KJ!
Reading Greyson’s posts from JC’s blog, it is obvious this guy has some connection to Frenchy. It’s all he posts about. Some choice snippits:
“Im not sure Frenchy should be the object of that criticism, but you can’t expect anyone to openly criticize a Saint like Bobby Cox or John Schuerholz, which is perhaps where it is due.”
“As for Frenchy being on the way to a mediocre career, here’s a trio of Hall of Famers, also from cities that love their players, to compare him with: Barry Bonds, Kirby Puckett, & Dave Winfield”
“there is no way the Braves can put an outfield out there without Francoeur”
Dude is nuts.
Attaboy Omar!
Our platoon second baseman now has as many home runs as our everyday right fielder. This is in addition to his advantages in every other category.
Adam, I’m sorry too.
Wow. Well, I wasn’t sure that Frenchy should be batting ahead of Kelly and Infante, but now I think I understand.
RBIs are like Wins, you can’t put as much stock in them as you do with more objective stats, but you don’t give up on a pitcher who won you 20 games the year before, just like you don’t give up on a guy who produced 170 runs. Regardless of any other stats, runs produced and pitcher wins are the two most determinant of team success. Now if the guy doesn’t win 10 over the next couple of years you can call it a fluke, but we’ve only given Jeff 5/8ths of a season.
As for eye-high pitches, you guys are taking one or two at-bats a game and obsessing on those. He does have a good at-bat every now and then. But again, I’m not defending Jeff, I’m defending Bobby… now if you want to argue that Bobby isn’t a good manager, I think you’re on your own there.
Oh, Yunel. Yunel, Yunel, Yunel.
runs produced and pitcher wins are the two most determinant of team success.
False.
Runs produced are dependent on the production of the players in front of and behind him. A pitchers win-loss record is also dependent on what his teammates do at the plate and in the field.
Because of this, these two stats are easily among the most overrated in the game in evaluating an individuals performance.
OK, because of #123, I now have to take back what I said before.
I come here for the good debate AND the relentless sarcastic mockery of other people who say asinine things.
Please, by all means, have at it!
Haha, and now Omar chooses this game to hit his second homer of the season… great… As I said the Kelly thing is just to split up lefties and righties. We’ve got a lefty dominant lineup today, and Kelly provides good protection for Jeff.
And Mac, Kelly just started to platoon, has only 40 at-bats less than Jeff, and is a defensive liability. Not to say he isn’t having a far better year, but it isn’t as cut and dried as you made it.
As for my comments from months ago that Douglass takes out of context. You really should look at the 4th year slumps of those three HoFers, they’re not quite as bad as Jeff’s but it shows plenty of data to suggest he could easily rebound and have a great year.
He needs to go down to create himself a new swing, and he needs someone who’s willing to punish him if he reverts back to his current one that works in the minors to boost his stats.
I wouldn’t be averse to putting him on the DL for 15 days so he can rest his ankle and sort his head out.
@125: Douglass, you’ve got to reread that post. You can’t be so silly as to miss it. I agree RP and Wins aren’t the best determinant of individual success, 100%. However, at the end of the year they take the teams with the best win-loss records, not the teams with the best VORPs or OPS+ or ERA+. Team success comes from winning games, and winning games comes from scoring runs. Jeff helped us score a TON of runs last year, which led to us winning a good deal of games.
The best determinant of team success is wins, plain and simple.
RBIs are like Wins, you can’t put as much stock in them as you do with more objective stats,
All stats are objective.
but you don’t give up on a pitcher who won you 20 games the year before, just like you don’t give up on a guy who produced 170 runs.
First of all, no one gets 20 wins any more; second of all, I think everyone gave up on Rick Helling. Third of all, I don’t know what you mean by “produced,” but Francoeur has created 39 runs this year. Kelly Johnson has created 52. Infante, in about 1/3 as many plate appearances, has created 18.
Regardless of any other stats, runs produced and pitcher wins are the two most determinant of team success.
This is demonstrably false.
Now if the guy doesn’t win 10 over the next couple of years you can call it a fluke, but we’ve only given Jeff 5/8ths of a season.
No, we’ve given him three years, over which he has regressed to the point of being the worst player in baseball.
@ 123
I’m on my own then… I think Bobby is an ordinary manager that has had some extraordinary players during the Braves streak of division titles. Those years saw very few injury problems and ownership that kept the team loaded with high-caliber players.
I wonder what the Braves could have done in the 90’s with a Leyland, Torre, or Pinella at the helm.
The best determinant of team success is wins, plain and simple
No, wins are a measure of success, not a determinant. And if you don’t know how flawed the “win” statistic is, as it applies to pitchers, I recommend you visit http://www.firejoemorgan.com, where they’ll be more than happy to explain it to you.
Greyson has said so much bullshit in the past half hour, I don’t even know what to address at this point.
@128, NickC: Hey a civilized debater! I’d agree, except I worry that Jeff would just dominate with his current approach in the minors and it would just reinforce his errors. Just look at what he did in Mississippi for 3 days, and his comments on his dominance there. He needs some humbling, and he does need someone to kick him when he does stupid things… he also needs a little less media coverage, which includes the blogosphere harpies.
Does Chris Coste kill us or what?!? Geez.
JoJo needs to throw some damn strikes
Throw a fucking strike.
@131 Mike: While I’m apt to agree that a large part of his success involves players, he’s a master at managing personalities, which is the most important aspect of managing today’s game.
I laugh that you’d include Torre amongst the better managers. I might have let you have LaRussa, and MAYBE Leyland or Pinella, but Torre benefited 100x more than Cox through insanely high payrolls and rosters so talented my dog could’ve managed them to at least one Series.
C’mon Jo-Jo…
Mike, you’re certainly not on your own. Bobby used to be a tremendous manager. His flaws — poor game management, poor bullpen management, a disregard for stats despite an absolute belief in lefty-righty matchups — have magnified with age.
He’s not a good manager any more. And I’m not alone in saying that — Alex R. has been saying it for years, and Mac is saying it too. After a year like this, so are a lot of other people.
Tie ballgame. Vitornino has absolutely owned us this year. Victornio delenda est.
Wow, this is dreadful.
JoJo you suck you piece of shit!!!!!!!!!!!
Good God. Is there no lead safe? Six run lead yesterday, five run lead today…
I dislike Reyes.
This could get ugly in a hurry.
Greyson – I include Torre because he’s the only manager I’ve seen get an umpire to reverse a call… not once but twice 😀 I agree that the Yanks are the kings of high payroll and I’m sure that didn’t hurt Torre… but he WON with high payrolls unlike our most costly teams. Good point on LaRussa… I like him a lot.
Well, at least we have practice from yesterday in how to deal with games like this.
I blame Hayden Christensen.
sick is the only word I have for this
Seriously…
I can’t believe I’m watching this.
Well, that sucked.
But beware Phillies fans, I’m headed into the shower.
Alex R: we’re arguing two different things here… You’re arguing about the future, I’m talking about the past. Maybe I haven’t been clear enough.
But 1st, check your stats Rick Helling started at least 34 games in each of the three seasons after his 20 wins, and 30 and 24 the two years after that.
My point isn’t that wins are a good predictor of success, that’s not true. Wins are, however, by rule, the determinant of team success. When the season is over the teams with the most wins in each division make it to the playoffs, regardless of their OPS+. I’ll take a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA that wins me 20 or saves me 40 this year any time… of course if I’m choosing teams for next year I’d take a guy with a 3.00 ERA over him even if he hadn’t won a single game. Does that make more sense?
Well it took me too long to type… did get ugly in a hurry. Jo-Jo blow-blows. What’s he got… two walks per inning? I HATE walks as they always seem to score. We sure don’t have a problem leaving OUR walked men on base.
Mike, yeah if I was making the list of best managers Torre, Cox, LaRussa, maybe Leyland, and probably Pinella are all on there, in no particular order.
As for Alex R., Bobby isn’t perfect, and I think he’s really suffered since Mazzone left. I’ve come to guess that Leo had a lot to do with managing the bullpen, which is IMO Bobby’s weakest aspect at this point. But all in all, the man knows more about baseball than all of the commenters in here combined, no offense to anyone intended.
Cary, back at 113, if the Dodgers would give the Braves LaRoche for Francoeur, I wouldn’t hesitate to make that trade. I don’t know if there’s any possibility of it occuring, but it’s a good idea, for the Braves at least.
HOLY SHIT!
Does this room blowup when Frenchy draws a walk?
Frenchy walked. Anyone else seeing pigs flying by?
Damn, Cox is sticking with Reyes. He must want to challenge the team… teach them to play with adversity. I guess he’ll make a change when we’re down 8-5. I thought we found out yesterday that this team doesn’t have the mental dexterity to blow a lead and then take it back.
Edit… I see Tavarez is coming in. I stand corrected.
When the season is over the teams with the most wins in each division make it to the playoffs, regardless of their OPS+. I’ll take a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA that wins me 20 or saves me 40 this year any time… of course if I’m choosing teams for next year I’d take a guy with a 3.00 ERA over him even if he hadn’t won a single game. Does that make more sense?
Unfortunately, it makes no sense whatsoever, because you’re mixing tenses. If, by the end of the season in October, a pitcher on your team has won 20 games with a 5.00 ERA, then you don’t get to say “I’ll take,” because his performance that season already happened.
On the other hand, you can be fairly sure that since he pitched poorly in the regular season he has a good chance of pitching poorly in the postseason, when he’ll actually have to face good competition. So if you’re managing that team, you might not want to start him on Game 1, 4 and 7.
Bobby just replaced Reyes with Tavarez, probably to boost Jo-Jo’s confidence. “See — anybody can give up three-run homers to these guys!”
That’s funny Alex 😀 …I just hope it doesn’t turn out to be true 🙁
Take that, AAR! It’s just a solo homer! So the Braves are now one run down. Hmmm.
Tavarez in a tied game…
Right on cue…
eyeroll at AAR
Get your predictions straight, homeslice. Like Tavarez has the patience to wait for a 3-run homer.
Well, it was, except for the three-run part. I’m sure Tavarez will work on that.
I can see how Howard hits so many homeruns. This ballpark is a frickin’ joke. It’s like every flyball to left or right field is a homerun.
Gotta love this team.
Aw, crap. Maybe Cox does know what he’s doing. Other than Ohman, Soriano, and Gonzalez, the entire bullpen is a question mark.
#1 Brave killer at the plate… and to think he’s batting eighth for them. I watched the video of the homer he hit earlier and the announcers said it looks like he’s out of his slump. He looks like an MVP candidate from what I’ve seen.
“Braves Baseball, is there anything better”
Die. Whoever you are. Die.
Alex R.: Actually “I’ll take” isn’t the same as “I’d take.” In other words, like you said, I’ll take this pitcher into the playoffs. (Would I take the guy who had a 3.00 ERA over him if I had that opportunity? In the abstract, probably.) But I’ll take him into a postseason game with confidence knowing he knows how to put his team in a position to win, especially if he is my #2 or #3, which Jeff would probably be at best on this team.
All I’m saying is that Jeff’s run production last year has earned him at least a full season to turn this around. Just please look at the 4th season of the guy who just homered, Pat Burrell (in case another one happens before I click send.)
And wasn’t Julian Tavarez 40-something in 1995? How the hell is he still alive and ruining the Braves’ late innings?
Bobby must be in sell mode, too.
I thought I was done, but one more thing, I just can’t let it slide:
Greyson wrote:
You really should look at the 4th year slumps of those three HoFers, they’re not quite as bad as Jeff’s but it shows plenty of data to suggest he could easily rebound and have a great year.
Besides the fact, that it’s assinine to compare Frenchy (the worst outfielder in baseball in 2008) to three hall of famers at this point, and despite how poorly constructed and irrelevant the comparison is – especially given Jeffy’s decline over the past 4 years – (you also arbitrarily used Bonds’ 4th year and Puckett and Winfields’ 2nd year – cherry picking stats for your own ends…), let’s just pretend it’s a legit comparison for a second:
Frenchy’s 2008 VORP: -10.1
Bonds’ 1989 VORP: 25.0
Winfield’s 1975 VORP: 23.3
Puckett’s 1985 VORP: 15.3
Even in these players’ worst years, they were still SIGNIFICANTLY better than Frenchy. Given the wide gap between Frenchy and Replacement Level, let alone Hall of Fame level, you would think this would have been obvious. But it was you who made the comparison, not me.
Ok now I’m done ridiculing the Fluffer.
Greyson, I guess someone just keeps giving Tavarez chances. You wouldn’t know anything about that, would you?
I saw Tavarez pitch for the Charlotte Knights (who were Cleveland’s AAA club) back in 1994. He didn’t look like a spring chicken then.
I wonder how we convinced San Diego to give us Ring? He’s something special… more like a run-producing specialist than a left-handed hitter specialist.
I seem to recall that on JC’s site, Greyson argued that David Justice’s 1992 slump (in which he hit .256 .359 .446, purely a matter of BABIP) was comparable to Francoeur’s collapse, and also that Justice had the “advantage” of hitting behind the 1991 MVP (Terry Pendleton, whose OBP was .345) instead of all those slow base-cloggers who are always on base in front of Jeffy.
But he’s not defending Frenchy, he’d never do that. He’s defending Bobby, remember?
Everyone seems in sell mode.
I wonder if Ring will be replaying yesterday’s at-bat with Howard up there now? He needs to win that battle this time.
Damn! A double-steal!
McCann hurt?!?!?
Talk about a kick in the balls!
Can we please have someone kill Victorino?
It just keeps getting better!
I think I liked it better when we thought Ring was dead.
Oh no… I see an injury delay on Gameday. Tell me it’s not McCann hurt on a throw to the plate…
As if I didn’t hate Victorino enough. I hope he gets hit by a bus.
That’s exactly what it was Mike. He didn’t move for a couple minutes, he’s just now getting up…looks shaken.
Seriously if McCann is injured, sell everyone including Hudson. Punt this season and get 6-8 prospects for Hudson, Teix and whoever else.
Aw nutz. Did Victorino take him out?
Victorino led with his head. Helmet to helmet contact.
Let’s trade for Farnsworth so he can come and kick the sh… out of Victorino!
Oh jeez…..why does it have to be McCann….
Corky Miller: cleanup hitter.
Douglass, thanks for the update. That sounds like a concussion for sure. I’ve seen Braves catchers rolled numerous times… Olson’s broken leg, Estrada’s concussion… I sure hope this isn’t serious.
Other than Lonnie Smith in the World Series, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a Braves player try to break up a play at the plate. We always err on the side of caution. I know it’s just part of the game but it sure does make me mad.
I hope B-mac doesn’t have a Ryan Church type injury….he’d probably be out for the rest of the year.
I would guess concussion. Oh, and it’s 11-5.
I like it as part of the game… but, obviously, hate to see it happen to our guy. Here’s to hoping pimpbot 16 will be ok.
McCann injury=sell, sell, sell……
A mock Tomahawk Chop has broken out.
I’d be lying if I said that didn’t hurt.
(Oh how I loathe the Chop…damn you neon Deion…damn you to hell!)
Boyer is cooked.
That’s the sound of this season’s death throes….
They need to put Boyer on the DL. Like, now.
Dan, I thought the same thing… now Corky’s batting cleanup.
I feel forsaken by the baseball gods. Our two best hitters are out, our pitching is paper thin, and the Phils are making us look ridiculous.
I think the season is officially circling the drain.
Sweet God.
I blame Bret Michaels.
My god, Simpleson is talking about nitrogen again. Moron.
Braves’ outfield slugging percentage this season: .368
David Eckstein’s career slugging percentage: .362
197, that certainly hurts. I cringed when I started hearing that. I am actually surprised the fans gave McCann a mild clap when he got up and left, I guess Philly baseball fans are classier than their football counterparts.
Wren just called down to Bobby now and said “Can we make some trades now ??”
(Well Royce Ring and Blaine Boyer worked SO well yesterday, why not bring ’em back today!)
Douglass, first as I said those comments you replied to were months old and you didn’t even give me the whole thing, so I forgot which seasons I used. I recall the overall conversation was about age, so I went as close as I could around 24 and pick a season with a relative drop in production.
This was a long time ago, but I recall the comparison wasn’t Frenchy’s 24th year to these HoFers’ early career struggles. I wasn’t saying he’s a HoFer that would be ignorant, I was saying that players struggle early in their careers, sometimes for whole years.
Since, I’ve found much better comparisons: Dave Justice’s 4th season 1992, Andruw Jones at 24 years in 2001, Ryan Klesko in his 4th full season in 1997, and Dale Murphy’s 4th full season (well strike-shortened to be fair) in 1981. All Atlanta Braves outfielders groomed under Bobby Cox, and all despite their struggles played in at least 87% of their games, which is probably what Jeff will be at if we don’t make an unlikely extended playoff run. Again, not comparing Jeff to any of these guys directly, just notice the production declines.
If I was to pick a direct comparison, my best bet would be Pat Burrell, as I mentioned before. Look at his 4th season in 2003, Frenchy can beat those if he can make any sort of adjustment and have a decent last two months.
Okay, it’s been fun guys, but at 11-5 Gameday isn’t quite as interesting. Maybe THEY know something about Mark Teixeira’s future… I wish I had Frank Wren’s private line…
Worst Braves team since….
I must have missed it, but where’s Carlyle? Isn’t he our long relief guy? The line on Reyes-Tavarez-Ring-Boyer, 11 runs on 10 hits and four walks… in only four innings. In a crucial game, that’s just mind boggling.
Well, I think Major League Baseball has found two great candidates to pitch the Home Run Derby next year in Reyes and Boyer.
Mac, I’d prefer if you’re going to take my comments out of context that you would at least provide a link to them so that people can actually read what I really said.
I mentioned how hitting behind Otis Nixon, Deion Sanders, and TP might create more RBI opportunities for a singles-doubles hitter (which Frenchy is) than hitting behind a trio of guys who are likely going to clear any of the upper order speed off the bases and have a hard time scoring from 2nd on hard hit singles to the outfield.
Okay, I had to stay for one more Frenchy at-bat!
Words cannot describe how big of a nightmare this weekend has been.
Sorry Greyson… Corky denied you.
A. Jones 2001: 19.6 VORP
R. Kelsko 1997: 19.1 VORP
D. Murphy 1981: 10.1 VORP
J. Francoeur 2008: -10.1 VORP
try again.
That’s it fellas… I’m out. At least the Phils score shouldn’t get much higher. Cox can use our good bullpen pitchers now as it’s the last few innings.
Hoping for a rally…
I mentioned how hitting behind Otis Nixon, Deion Sanders, and TP might create more RBI opportunities for a singles-doubles hitter (which Frenchy is) than hitting behind a trio of guys who are likely going to clear any of the upper order speed off the bases and have a hard time scoring from 2nd on hard hit singles to the outfield.
You’re right. Batting behind players with OBP of .348, .346, and .345 provides SO MANY more RBI opportunities than batting behind .466, .384, & .386.
Try again.
Douglass!? Do you read? I’m sorry, I’m not all that interested in your VORP stats anyways, but you’re not even comparing the right ones. Compare each of the Brave outfielders with their surrounding years stats, not with Jeff’s. Then compare the relative declines, and see what you get.
And what happened to Justice?, who if I remember was closest among the four. And what about Pat Burrell?
Damn you Corky!
Oh, and why aren’t you using VORPD stats? Wouldn’t that take even more of the fun out of watching the game?
Buddy!
Pat Burrell, 2004? Easily the worst season of his career?
Burrell 2004: 13.1
Jeffy 2008: -10.1
Try again.
I’m not all that interested in your VORP stats anyway
Not my problem. From what I can tell you aren’t interested in any stats.
Be nice one to another, guys. We can disagree without rancour. (Or is that without Francour?)
Justice’s batting average went down 21 points from 1991 to 1992, his on-base percentage eighteen points, his slugging percentage 57 points (largely because of doubles not falling — he hit the same number of homers, in somewhat more PA).
Francoeur’s batting average is down sixty points from last year, his on-base percentage 58, his slugging 74. And he was starting from a much, much lower level. It’s a nonsensical argument.
I can’t edit my post above:
I misread Burrell’s numbers. You were referencing his 2003…which was indeed on Frenchy’s level of shittiness…Yikes.
Congrats, you finally found an example of a season as bad as Frenchys.
However, when it comes to dealing with people, he, like most great economic minds, isn’t always the clearest of head.
As an economist–one who has never to my knowledge intereacted with you in any way–I appreciate the kind words. JC’s advice to you seems about right.
Mac, It’s a wider margin, I’ll give you that. It isn’t nonsensical. I bet you Jeff passes Dave’s AVG and makes a run at the SLUG% and comes close to as many Runs Produced. At least give him the whole year.
From what I can tell you aren’t interested in any stats.
I bet Greyson loves the two-out RBIs.
good news….hopefully Wren isnt influenced by Bobby and he completes a deal tonight to ship off anyone and everyone not named Chipper, Jair, and McCann.
If the Dodgers wanted to pay Andruw’s salary next year and give him to us for Frenchy, I’d welcome Druw back. He may be done, but I never saw any centerfielder play better defense; and I remember Cap Anson.
Greyson tell the truth. How do you know Francoeur?
Douglass: I knew that Pat couldn’t have been judged well by any reasonable standard, I have renewed faith in your VORPal statistics. Now if Jeff only lives up to Pat Burrell, a 1st overall pick, will you still be unimpressed?
Why wasn’t Victorino on his ass?
Atlanta Choking Bastards …
Francoeur would have to hit .300 for the rest of the season to finish the season at .256, and would have to slug well over .500 to finish at .446. These are both higher than his pre-2008 norms. There is no reason to think he is capable of doing this. And this ignores that getting on base is, by far, the most important offensive skill, and he won’t come close to what Justice did.
I wanted B-mac to get some time off, but this isn’t what I meant.
And Francoeur sucks.
Why can’t Omar Infante play right field for us?
Greyson, the difference between Francoeur and Burrell is as follows. Burrell’s worst season is an aberration, just about the worst imaginable performance he could have produced. His career-average performance makes him one of the better offensive players in all of baseball. Francoeur’s career-average performance is simply not acceptable from a corner outfielder.
Like every other comparison you’ve made, they are wholly incomparable players.
@222 Frank: my apologies if I’ve offended you. Perhaps I spoke a little too hasty, I don’t mean to show it as a fault, only to suggest that there is a wide segment of the population that is genetically predisposed to better understand logical and rational situations instead of the more nuanced and unpredictable interactions of people. Neither is any less deserving of respect. Nor was my comment in any way directed at all economists, perhaps I should’ve replaced “most” with “many.”
There is not a single piece of evidence to suggest Frenchy will produce like Pat Burrell, including the fact that, by mere coincidence, they both had shitty 4th years.
He probably thinks Francouer is better than Babe Ruth because in Babe’s last season (with the Braves!) he hit only .180. Never mind that Ruth still had an ops approaching .800 and Babe’s 6 HR in 72 AB is nearly as many as Francoeur’s 9 HR in 386 AB.
Escobar is untouchable and Kelly Johnson is not…why again?
Would be nice to have McCann as tying run here…
Instead we get Corky.
Alex, Omar might be a possibility, but his arm isn’t going to be as meaningful as Jeff’s, and it would do less to help the future of the team beyond this season. That’s why I’m just saying we should forgive one awful year from Jeff, and wait to see if he makes an adjustment over the last two months, or by the beginning of next year. As a fan it just makes sense to support your backbone players, and like it or not, I guarantee you he’s back at starting RFer batting 5th or 6th in the 2009 opening day lineup. Just ask Phillie fans if all their bitching and moaning in 2003 (and they are the kings of it btw) got Pat traded? And he was 26.
So true… Maybe Corky can single home a run…?
What in the world is going on ?? A rally ??
one awful year from Jeff
You missed 2006?
Nevermind, Corky does what he does.
Now we’ll be facing Lidge down by at least two runs with Kotsay-the Human Out-Johnson coming up.
Wow, now you’re going to start on Esco… You guys are so fickle. Anyways, it’s been swell, but I’ve got to run. GO BRAVES! We can still win this thing…
Oh, and man look at that line for Ring… I think my slipup in blaming him yesterday was prophetic!
Just ask Phillie fans if all their bitching and moaning in 2003 (and they are the kings of it btw) got Pat traded? And he was 26.
Again, terrible comparison. Burrell also had an established record of putting up 900+ OPS at every single level…something Jeffy hasn’t done a single time above the high school level.
The scary thing is that if McCann is really hurt, Corky will be catching for a while. I don’t care who’s catching at AAA, get them up.
I just tuned back in… are people comparing Burrell to Francoeur? First someone brought Adam Dunn into the same conversation as Frenchy, now Burrell. Is there some sort of mission to compare Francoeur with his absolute opposites?
Also, why are both Teixeira and McCann out of the game? I notice that in this ‘blowout loss’ all six of the top hitters in Philly’s loaded lineup are still in the game.
Wow, now you’re going to start on Esco
Dan wasn’t starting in on Esco. He was starting in on the people that think KJ is any less valuable than Esco.
I think my slipup in blaming him yesterday was prophetic!
No, it wasn’t.
Someone better tell Kelly. When Tex is traded in the next couple of days, he’ll be the entire middle of the lineup.
Adam, McCann got concussed on a play at the plate and Tex was removed in a double-switch when they brought in Carlyle.
Folks, we all know that we’ll lose by one run, but – to steal a line from a great movie – frankly I don’t give damn for this game. All I care about is McCann, and not so much the player, but the man. Hope he is alright.
Douglass, Frenchy in 2006, just about a RP a game, with 13 OF assists on top of that. Not a great year, but for a 22 year old it was pretty decent. Look at what Pat Burrell did in the majors at 22 years old. Nothing.
And how does your quote of me relate to your comment? Did I miss Pat getting traded?
Let’s just all try this: think positive thoughts for Jeff for this one at-bat! Maybe, just maybe, it will make a difference…
Man, I don’t want to lose Ohman.
Oh man, I cannot wait to see the lineup tomorrow:
1. Blanco, 2. Escobar, 3. Teixeira, 4. Johnson, 5. Francoeur, 6. Infante, 7. Kotsay, 8. Corky Miller, 9. Pitcher
What’s it look like if Teixeira is traded…?
When did Teix leave the game? I get neither tv nor radio where I am now. Has there been any update on McCann?
Thanks, Nick C. You answered before I asked.
Can Kotsay go 4 for 5 or draw a walk? If so, can Jeffy stay out of the double-play? Stay tuned…
“Just ask Phillie fans if all their bitching and moaning in 2003 (and they are the kings of it btw) got Pat traded? And he was 26.”
Aren’t you ignoring the fact that most Phillies fans are idiots? The ‘mood’ of those in the stands in Philadelphia ceases to matter once you realize they’ve booed the Sixers in the Finals, the Phillies in the World Series, and the Eagles in the NFC Championship Game (and, on the first day of the season, down 3-0… my personal favorite).
Also, how can it be “one awful year.” 2006 was one of the worst in the majors.
Edit: McCann definitely has a concussion? If he does then he’ll have to be DL’d. Ryan Church is still hurt after that play with Escobar earlier this season.
Dan! Move Francoeur to 6th before everyone jumps on you…
You’re right, at 22, Burrell was putting up 1.000+ OPS in the minors.
I’m not going to try to correct (for the millionth time) your use of Runs Produced again. I’ll just say: No it wasn’t decent at all. In fact, it was terrible. LIke tihs year, he put up a sub .300 OBP. Like this year, he put up a negative VORP number. And like this year, he was one of 2 players in the whole league to have over 10% of a teams at-bats and put up a negative VORP number.
Next.
So I left during the middle of the game, only to come back and see Prado and the Hamster batting 3-4. I read that BMac got hurt, but why was Teix taken out?
I’m sure the FO will see the 10 runs as a positive & proof that this team keeps fighting to the last. Welcome Jason Bay……
Dan! Move Francoeur to 6th before everyone jumps on you…
I was going to put Francoeur fourth before I thought that even Cox wouldn’t do that.
If it was me managing, among those people, Francoeur would bat seventh, above Corky Miller and the pitcher.
Teixeira was taken out because he was traded to the Angels.
No, seriously, he was taken out because the Braves were losing 12-5 and had already lost McCann to injury and there seemed no reason to risk Mark.
@261 Who was the other one? Pierre? Guzman? This is fun…
FWIW, Douglass, I think you’re pissing into the wind. There’s no point in using reason with anyone who sees Frenchy’s 2006 season as anything but bad. Sure, he still had potential to develop plate discipline and increase his power, but his swing seems to have gotten longer and his eye worse. He’s one of the two or three worst everyday hitters in baseball right now, and when that happens, you can’t simply call it an aberration.
What the hell, was that Francoeur taking an unintentional walk while laying off no fewer than two fastballs at or above the letters?
Also, if I were filling out the lineup card:
Blanco
Kelly
Escobar
Teixeira
Infante
Kotsay
Frenchy
Hamster
Pitcher
2006: He was 22 and he played 162 games in the Major Leagues, and knocked in 103 runs.
2 walks back-to-back. Classic at-bat… I told you he’d have at least one a game… 2 today… I’m out folks, goodnight!
Here’s the ATL Braves lineup for August 1st, 2008:
Escobar
Kotsay
Bay
Tex
Franceour
Kelly
Infante
Miller
Looks like a World Series contender to me
re: 266
Pedro Feliz
And yet, you’ll be back.
RBI IS A TEAM-DEPENDENT STAT. The main reason he had so many RBI is that he had a lot of baserunners in front of him. If you keep bringing up RBI you’re just proving that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
MLB Gameday just said “Foul (runner going)”. Two runs down in the bottom of the ninth. Think about that!
He knocked in 103 runs
Because he played 162 games batting behind Chipper and Andruw.
Well, the only reason he’ll be back is because people keep talking to him.
Hey, whatever, it’s great that he walked twice. Yay. Time to sell.
And by Francoeur walking twice in the same game, Greyson’s comparison between Frenchy and 3 Hall of Famers becomes justified.
Or not.
Well, the weather should get the Win instead of whatever Phillies pitcher they give it to (geez, what are the odds of Eaton getting back to back wins?). No way Campillo gives up 11 runs through six.
Phooey.
Ballgame. On a positive note, the Braves will definitely become sellers now.
Well, the only reason he’ll be back is because people keep talking to him.
Sorry. I’ll take responsibility on this one. I probably fisked him more than anyone else.
I’m ready to see Ring designated for assignment and Boyer sent back to AAA. Send Reyes down and bring Morton back while they’re at it.
Tex traded yet? The only reason he would be taken out is because he was traded, or the talks are getting very serious.
I predicted before this series began that we’d go 1-2 in Philly to make it a 3-3 road trip. A .500 road trip should equal being sellers on July 27th, but it’s not as big of a statement as it would have been if we’d gone 1-5, or something.
When everyone was saying that a good road trip could mean being buyers and a bad one would mean sellers, I thought, “no way we do anything but go .500”. And the team did not disappoint.
DOUGASS is on a roll today!!!!
It takes real skill to score 27 runs in a 3 game series with Chipper not playing at all and still lose 2 games. At least it wasn’t another 1 run road loss.
What’s the latest on Bennett, Diaz, and Stockman? Bennett in particular would be nice to have back about now; not that he’s great but the pen’s been crummy.
Tex was just traded to the Reds!!! Just kidding.
Good observation Ron. That is downright scary.
What’s the matter, Ric? Having a hard time finding a stat that supports any of the ridiculous arguments you’ve made this week?
I just read in the AJC that Diaz had a setback on his knee and had another MRI which showed just inflammation, so don’t expect him in Atlanta anytime soon.
Recap is up.
Douglass how about this. Fuck You Asshole!!
Is this your damn site? No so shut the hell up!! Anytime someone has something to say you do not agree with the world ends.
My Dad knows absolutely NOTHING about sabermetrics. Really nothing besides what he sees on TV when the players come up to bat. And he knows Francoeur sucks.
Calmer than you are dude.
Nice, Douglass.